Noir Films

User avatar
movieman1957
Administrator
Posts: 5522
Joined: April 15th, 2007, 3:50 pm
Location: MD

Re: Noir Films

Post by movieman1957 »

Does he smile? I guess in the Sturges films he would.
Chris

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
User avatar
CineMaven
Posts: 3815
Joined: September 24th, 2007, 9:54 am
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Contact:

Re: Noir Films

Post by CineMaven »

Smiling kind of ruins it for me...just a leetle.
"You build my gallows high, baby."

http://www.megramsey.com
User avatar
MissGoddess
Posts: 5072
Joined: April 17th, 2007, 10:01 am
Contact:

Re: Noir Films

Post by MissGoddess »

Ha! You know you're right. There are some men who are so charming when they smile, Ty Power, Clark Gable even Burt Lancaster. Others, you want them to keep their "game face" on. :D
"There's only one thing that can kill the movies, and that's education."
-- Will Rogers
User avatar
CineMaven
Posts: 3815
Joined: September 24th, 2007, 9:54 am
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Contact:

Re: Noir Films

Post by CineMaven »

I hear ya Miss G.. I wonder what threading salon Brian went to to get his eyebrows done. They look perfect!!! :P I just love his look. :)
"You build my gallows high, baby."

http://www.megramsey.com
User avatar
Vienna
Posts: 400
Joined: October 24th, 2012, 8:03 am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Noir Films

Post by Vienna »

CineMaven , I love that photo of Brian and Ella Raines.
Thank you.
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Noir Films

Post by JackFavell »

I love how you describe him, Maven! Arrow collar man, yes, there's something starchy tough but handsome about him, he's no pup, this guy. Makes me wonder if he was a born New Yawker.

I think he smiles a lot as Alan Ladd's buddy, who can't stop his emotions from getting away from him. He's a big lug, kind to his friends, but watch out for that smile if you are on his bad side.
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Noir Films

Post by JackFavell »

Hey, thanks to ChiO for the recommendation of Stranger on the 3rd Floor!

I really enjoyed this film a lot, thanks to Boris Ingster's direction, a good cast, and especially Nicholas Musuraca's lighting. My gosh, the entire middle section was just so enormously innovative, with scenes washing in and out of each other in different ways, and shadows becoming increasingly fragmented and overpowering. Ingster threw everything but the kitchen sink into that imaginative section of the film. It made me like him for trying everything in the book that hadn't really been written yet.

The leading man reminded me of Tom Neal a lot, he was very effective, if not a perfect actor - I think a more polished performance might have actually been less effective. You really felt this poor fellow had fallen off the edge of a cliff, emotionally speaking. He's just a normal guy who suddenly has his eyes opened to the infinite possibilities of being wrong. It's actually not that far off from screwball, if you think about it, where a man or woman is broadened by the sudden influence of a new anarchic presence. In this film, our hero's mind is expanded, but darkly, as his options constrict.

I very much liked the heroine as well, Margaret Tallichet I believe was her name, but she belonged to the sane part of the movie, she didn't figure into any of the more noir aspects, as all good girls in noir are relegated to the sidelines. :D

Peter Lorre is such a presence, I always leaned forward when he came onto the screen only to vanish again before he got a chance to do anything. If anything, that's the only weakness of the film, aside from not taking the noir to the next level - turning it into reality at the end.

And if the lighting, the dark direction, or the story doesn't prove this is noir, the presence of Elisha Cook, Jr. should. Great, as usual, Cook gives the film it's foundation in fear and darkness, setting the hero on his mental journey. it's the one movie I can think of where he doesn't buy it in the end.

I am now firmly of the belief that Nick Musuraca was a genius - I've seen his name a lot in the last month, and the movies he's attached to I always like the look of. I don't believe he was a huge name in lighting, plugging away for years on B movies, coming up through the silents. But he lit so many of my favorite films, and on a small budget, that I am more and more in admiration of his talent. He lit Cat People and Curse of the Cat People, and that alone is enough to put him on the top of the mountain in my book. Here are a few others he did that are favorites:

The Seventh Victim
Ghost Ship

The Gay Falcon (OK, not the most exciting lighting project, but still it's my favorite in the series)
Five Came Back
Allegheny Uprising
Tuttles of Tahiti
(I didn't really care for this movie, but the look of it really stood out to me)
The Spiral Staircase
Deadline at Dawn
Bedlam
The Locket
Out of the Past
The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer
I Remember Mama
Blood on the Moon
The Blue Gardenia
Clash By Night


So Musuraca is starting to be my hero. Think of movies like The Spiral Staircase or Bedlam, then take away the lighting.... you've got nothing left.

Stranger on the 3rd Floor got me thinking about the beginnings of noir. Do you think noir was inevitable? I mean, was it simply time, in the historical timeline of the movies for noir to take it's place as the prime artistic force?

I had always thought that the tensions and fears of WWII, the rise of communism, and the subsequent blacklist brought noir to the forefront in cinema, but here it is, 1940, and all the elements are there. And we've discussed Pepe Le Moko and Gueule d'Amour as having many elements of noir in them, though granted, the french were dealing with the threat of war far earlier than we were. So what REALLY brought noir forward? Was cinema simply growing up, growing more adult? Would have happened even if we hadn't had the war or any of the concomitant problems it brought up?
User avatar
CineMaven
Posts: 3815
Joined: September 24th, 2007, 9:54 am
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Contact:

Re: Noir Films

Post by CineMaven »

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Your review just elevated this film even more. Nicely written!

Of course I didn't see it. ( :oops: ) I was absent-minded...and a bit of a nincompoop. Guess it's back to the make-up counter ( YouTube ) for me! You did the same thing for "Tribute To A Bad Man." Oh, that time I was just a nincompoop. Keep adding to my list of regrets, Obi Wan. :(

I look forward to our Noirian experts here to answer your questions. You asked some good ones.
"You build my gallows high, baby."

http://www.megramsey.com
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Noir Films

Post by JackFavell »

I think you'd like this one, Maven. it's really fascinating, an anomaly for 1940. I wonder if anyone knew then that it was pointing the way to the future?

Margaret Tallichet reminds me just a little of your Frances Gifford, not quite as polished or elegant, but very feminine. Maybe a little of Margaret Lindsey's smarts. Add something frail and European about her looks and you've got it. She's got me interested.

Image

Turns out she was married to your bud William Wyler! Yup. I'll have to read up on her.
User avatar
ChiO
Posts: 3899
Joined: January 2nd, 2008, 1:26 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Noir Films

Post by ChiO »

JF wrote:
I am now firmly of the belief that Nick Musuraca was a genius - I've seen his name a lot in the last month, and the movies he's attached to I always like the look of. I don't believe he was a huge name in lighting, plugging away for years on B movies, coming up through the silents.
There are so many incredible cinematographers, including Nicholas Musuraca, who once was atop my list. My favorite, however, over the past several years has been John Alton.
I had always thought that the tensions and fears of WWII, the rise of communism, and the subsequent blacklist brought noir to the forefront in cinema, but here it is, 1940, and all the elements are there. And we've discussed Pepe Le Moko and Gueule d'Amour as having many elements of noir in them, though granted, the french were dealing with the threat of war far earlier than we were. So what REALLY brought noir forward? Was cinema simply growing up, growing more adult? Would have happened even if we hadn't had the war or any of the concomitant problems it brought up?
There are so many differing approaches to take regarding the history of film noir (not to mention its definition) that it seems an impossible task to resolve the history. You have hit upon one of the weaknesses of the standard history: WWII tensions and fears including the returning veterans and displacement of women in the workforce; plus paranoia regarding the rise of communism, including the blacklist; plus emigre directors, writers, and cinematographers due to the rise of Nazism (bringing with them German Expressionism); plus hardboiled fiction (sometimes pulp fiction) = rise of film noir.

Maybe, but I'm not convinced. There are too many other things going on, or evidence that seems to contradict the standard history, that call the standard history into question. What has bothered me is that those elements of the standard history always appear to be just tossed out there as if they are indisputably true and so intuitively correct that they need not be challenged. There is an interesting challenge to the WWII thesis in an essay, Strange Pursuit: Cornell Woolrich and the Abandoned City (David Reid & Jayne L. Walker) in Shades of Noir (ed. Joan Copjec 1993), suggesting that the Depression had a far greater impact. Not only did it create the economic tensions and uncertainty that are obvious, but it also was an incubator for political tension and prejudice against women in the workplace, all of which predate WWII. And, as James Naremore points out in More Than Night: Film Noir in Its Contexts, French critics provided the term, applied it to certain American movies of a particular period within a specific French intellectual context (including surrealism and existentialism), which does not mean film noir did not exist in the U.S. or other countries prior to that. Also, as to fictional sources, Woolrich, who had more movies adapted from his writings than Chandler, Hammett and Cain combined, was not a hard-boiled writer, and Cain did not write for the pulps. A significant number of directors and cinematographers of film noir, or film noir-related, in the early '40s were U.S. born or had careers that started in the U.S. (which leads to an issue I'd love to read about: how prevalent or available were German Expressionist films in the U.S. in the '20s & '30s).

Was cinema becoming more adult? More adult than D.W. Griffith or King Vidor or Howard Hawks or Raoul Walsh? What was the role of the need for film product? Film noir, after all, largely consisted of B-features (in the historical meaning of the term) and crime melodramas (what most film noir was called at the time) have always been popular. But did film noir even come to the "forefront" prior to 1972 and Paul Schrader's essay, Notes on Film Noir? So many truisms to rethink, so little time.
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Noir Films

Post by JackFavell »

I'd love to know how available expressionistic films (or any European films) were to the general public, but even more I'd like to know how available they were to directors and DPs, lighting men, etc. in Hollywood. Sometimes I swear I see the unmistakable influence of European films on American products, but it's impossible to say if this particular director saw the film that relates in my mind.

Point taken about the 'adultness' of certain movies and the 'rise' of film noir. I guess some of those 'indisputable' assumptions that critics and writers have made are so deeply ingrained in me that even I didn't realize my preconceived notions could be open for debate.
User avatar
ChiO
Posts: 3899
Joined: January 2nd, 2008, 1:26 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Noir Films

Post by ChiO »

Did a little digging relating to the German emigre/German Expressionism impact on American film noir by taking the movies in Film Noir: An Encyclopedic Reference to the American Style, since it is the generally acknowledged standard reference, listed for 1940, 1941, and 1942, the start of the Classic Age, and checking out where the directors and cinematographers were born and where they worked.

1940

CITY FOR CONQUEST
D: Anatole Litvak - born in Ukraine 1902, moved to Berlin 1925 (first film work), moved to Paris with rise of Hitler & arrived in U.S. 1937
D (uncredited): Jean Negulesco - born Romania 1900, moved to Paris 1912 & arrived in U.S. 1927 (first films were in U.S.)
C: James Wong Howe - born China 1899 & arrived in U.S. in 1904
C: Sol Polito - born Italy 1892 & arrived in U.S. as a child

THE LETTER
D: William Wyler - born in Alsace 1902 & arrived in U.S. 1921
C: Tony Gaudio - born in Italy 1883 & arrived in U.S. 1906 (first films were in U.S.)

STRANGER ON THE THIRD FLOOR
D: Boris Ingster - born Latvia 1903 & earliest film credit is in U.S. 1930
C: Nicholas Musuraca - born Italy 1892 & earliest film credit in U.S. 1922

1941

AMONG THE LIVING
D: Stuart Heisler - born U.S. 1896
C: Theodor Sparkuhl - born Germany 1894, moved to England 1929 & arrived in U.S. 1933

HIGH SIERRA
D: Raoul Walsh - born U.S. 1887
C: Tony Gaudio

THE MALTESE FALCON
D: John Huston - born U.S. 1906
C: Arthur Edeson - born U.S. 1891

THE SHANGHAI GESTURE
D: Josef von Sternberg - born Austria 1894 & arrived in U.S. 1907 & 1914 (most of film career in U.S.)
C: Paul Ivano - born France 1900 & arrived in U.S. around 1922

SUSPICION
D: Alfred Hitchcock - born England 1899 & arrived in U.S. 1940
C: Harry Stradling - born U.S. 1901, but worked in France, Germany & England in '30s

1942

THE GLASS KEY
D: Stuart Heisler
C: Theodor Sparkuhl

I WAKE UP SCREAMING
D: H. Bruce Humberstone - born U.S. 1901
C: Edward Cronjager - born U.S. 1904

JOHNNY EAGER
D: Mervyn LeRoy - born U.S. 1900
C: Harold Rosson - born U.S. 1895

STREET OF CHANCE
D: Jack Hively - born U.S. 1910
C: Theodor Sparkuhl

THIS GUN FOR HIRE
D: Frank Tuttle - born U.S. 1892
C: John Seitz - born U.S. 1892

Certainly this doesn't mean that the German emigres or German Expressionism's influence couldn't have been substantial, but it does make one consider the possibility that that influence is, if not overstated, then allowed to push out other possibilities or influences. It is worth noting that in 1944, Robert Siodmak and Billy Wilder enter the film noir race, and that Fritz Lang directed FURY and YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE in the U.S. prior to 1940 (and Karl Freund and Rudolph Mate were around, but not in a film noir context). Again, was there a conscious influence from German Expressionism and, if so, why did it seem to hit its stride in the U.S. in the 1940s when its original heyday was the 1920s? Or, is it, as one critic put it (I wish I could find where I read it): The Germans didn't invent shadows.
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Noir Films

Post by JackFavell »

Those are great ideas, ChiO!

I wondered, looking at your list, were some of these movies more influential perhaps than others? I don't know the grosses of these movies, so I'm just guessing that The Maltese Falcon was seen by more people than Among the Living or The Stranger on the Third Floor. Of course, that's just looking at something we call classic now, and imposing a belief on it that it was more popular than a B picture...the reverse may be true for all I know. Then again, does a movie have to be commercially successful to be influential with other directors?

See the can of worms you opened up?
RedRiver
Posts: 4200
Joined: July 28th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Noir Films

Post by RedRiver »

Waiter! Another can of worms, please.
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Noir Films

Post by JackFavell »

And two hard boiled eggs.

Make that three hard boiled eggs.
Post Reply