The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone

[ken123]

I prefer the non Warren version ! Viva Ms Mirren !!!!!

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi Ken,

I have never understood the 'attraction' for Warren Beatty. And, I cannot fathom why women (well some women) were associated with him. He is quite the "sleeze ball" really and 'a user'...
He really was all wrong for this part of the Italian gigolo - even Lotta Lenya said they had trouble (massive problems) with him during this film. This was told to me by Moira Lister, who got it from Lotta Lenya herself. Moira Lister was supposed to be in this movie as a cast-off lady before Vivien gets him, but her part was cut out before the movie started.

I used to like Annette Bening - as in "Valmont" - but can't look at her now...

I do love Vivien Leigh though and always thought Lotta Lenya was a hoot.
But, Warren spoils this film.
Weren't there any handsome, sexy Italian actors available - or a Spaniard, Frenchman??

Larry

[moira finnie]

Weren't there any handsome, sexy Italian actors available - or a Spaniard, Frenchman??

Larry

Larry, I think that Alain Delon would have been ideal in this role, though I'm sure that the selection of Beatty was based on someone's belief in his "bankability" at the time. Vivien Leigh seems to be on another plane in this movie when she appears on screen with him. However, that lack of chemistry worked in her favor in a sense, since the movie seems to me to be about her character's isolation and her despair when she recognizes that her beautifully groomed life is quite empty. It does not really seem to be about the "love affair" between a rich woman and a wastrel.

Btw, the only time I thought that Beatty gave a decent and less self-absorbed account of himself as an actor was under Elia Kazan's direction in Splendor in the Grass (1961). Otherwise, it's strictly a case of 'narcissistic high school football star wins lead role' over and over again, but that's just my reaction. Lots of others certainly saw something I missed completely.

[jdb1]

There's a new biography of Beatty out, called Star: How Warren Beatty Seduced America. It is supposedly an "authorized" bio, approved by its subject. From the reviews of the book I've read over the last few days, I'd have to say that it does nothing to change my impression of Beatty as one of the most self-absorbed, callow and relentlessly ambitious men who ever lived.

I've never found anything to get excited about when Beatty is on the screen. "Preening" is the word which most often comes to my mind. However, I've met a lot of men who must be like Beatty -- they have the seductive ability to make women (and men as well) they have set their sites on feel like the most desirable and important people in the world for a brief moment. In fact, I've heard it said that Chico Marx had a similar quality -- it has nothing to do with looks.

Whenever I see Beatty listed as a star in any movie, I avoid it.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi Moira,

I agree totally with you on this...
Alain Delon would have been a better choice, certainly more 'continental'...

And, I do wonder if Vivien was unwell in this period; and she had just been divorced from Olivier. Some emotional setback there, no doubt...
I did see a TV interview in Britain with Coral Browne a few years later (maybe even after Vivien died), and she said "poor Vivien was a zombie in Rome during filming"...
Also, Jill St. John said that Vivien never even acknowledged her or regarded her presence in the movie...

Still, as you say, maybe this was all for the best and her performance was valid to the emotion(s) of the story...

Larry

[moira finnie]

I believe that Vivien Leigh was still struggling with her mental problems at this stage as well, which may account for her distracted air on and off screen. There is an element of this same strangeness in Ship of Fools, so perhaps it was a consequence of her treatments for what we would call bipolar disorder, which plagued her for years. The divorce from Olivier seems to have drained her terribly, though her work ethic was admirable. I have a family friend who saw her on stage in a musical version of Tovarich with Jean-Pierre Aumont in 1963 and thought that she was delightful. He had also seen her as Juliet in Romeo and Juliet, and as Shaw's as well as Shakespeare's Cleopatra opposite Laurence Olivier on stage. My friend always maintained that once she got away from the effort of competing or keeping up with Olivier, she relaxed and had more fun on stage.

I tend to think she was a superb actress on film, but would have liked to see her in a theater too.

[charliechaplinfan]

The book I'm reading at the moment touches on the relationship between Olivier and Vivien. Olivier was said to be very jealous of Vivien's advancing career, he'd already had Jill Esmond jetison her career in favour of his and leave Hollywood after Larry's career didn't take off. Vivien is one of my favorite actresses, I have an awful fondness for her, she had plenty who loved her and wanted to protect her. I'm glad she didn't live in today's celebrity ridden culture, every minute of her struggle with TB and bi polar disorder would have been played out in front of the world.

I haven't seen any of Vivien's later film, I keep promising myself that I'll follow the links of the youtube thread and watch the movie of Vivien's there. I have a lovely book full of pictures of Vivien in her theatrical costumes. I'm glad you've recounted the expereice of watching Vivien on stage.

As for Warren Beatty, I haven't seen much. He always has a look to me of a person who needs to wear glasses but is too vain to wear them, so he squints.

[mrsl]

.
Warren Beatty is the reason I've never watched this all the way through. I've seen parts, but usually changed the channel when he came on screen. He's another Marlon to me, ick, ick, ick, all the way.

I've watched Spendor in the Grass, but only for Natalie and her award worthy acting, and he's not in it all that much, it's really Natalies' movie.
.

[srowley75]

Hi Ken,

I have never understood the 'attraction' for Warren Beatty. And, I cannot fathom why women (well some women) were associated with him. He is quite the "sleeze ball" really and 'a user'...

According to the book, apparently one of my favorites Paula Prentiss gave him the brush-off. Woo hoo!

even Lotta Lenya said they had trouble (massive problems) with him during this film. This was told to me by Moira Lister, who got it from Lotta Lenya herself. Moira Lister was supposed to be in this movie as a cast-off lady before Vivien gets him, but her part was cut out before the movie started.

I know others appreciate your stories centered on Hollywood royalty, Larry, and while I also enjoy those I have to say I prefer your stories about some of the lesser-known actors and actresses out there. I always thought Lotte Lenya would've made an interesting interview - I loved that dragon lady she played in From Russia With Love, and I suppose that's the role that appeared at the top of her obituary.

I'd have also loved to have seen the Coral Browne interview you referenced. Yet another actress who always intrigued me.

[srowley75]

There's a new biography of Beatty out, called Star: How Warren Beatty Seduced America. It is supposedly an "authorized" bio, approved by its subject. From the reviews of the book I've read over the last few days, I'd have to say that it does nothing to change my impression of Beatty as one of the most self-absorbed, callow and relentlessly ambitious men who ever lived.

I've also read several reviews about it. It sounds as though he was well cast as Milton Armitage.

[Vecchiolarry]

Thanks, SR...

I too enjoy the lesser known 'stars' of the movies.
As you probably know from reading my tomes, I consider all the co-stars, supporting people and character people as "STARS" too.... Some of them, in fact all of them, really saved a lot of films....
Often I watch a movie just for the supporting staff.

I never knew Lotte Lenya or Corale Brown, but enjoyed everything they did... "From Russia with Love" is a real hoot when she's on board - - and that deadly shoe - oh my!!!

You would have loved Moira Lister - she was a real character, somewhat over the top with her entrances, but you noticed her and never forgot her. And, she knew everybody in Britain, France, Spain and USA. And, South Africa too.... She once unknowingly dated a British 'serial killer', who killed brunettes only and blithely told the coppers, "Well, he liked me because I was so funny & charming, or so he told me... And, thank God, I'm a BLONDE, darling!!!"... Now, that's hootzpah!!!

Larry

[JackFavell]

I am going to stick up for Beatty, mainly because I like his movie Reds. I never found him offensive, but I didn't know any of his background story till very recently. Heck, I suppose if I looked like Warren Beatty, I'd be a dog with the women too. Beatty doesn't strike me as a bad actor, just a bland one. He gets the job done, and yes, he is self absorbed, but I am wondering how many other actors of that time were not.

I really like Reds, it's a well made love story, mixed with documentary footage and as far as I am concerned, a gift to Diane Keaton on a platter. I love the performances, and though he is not on screen much, Jack Nicholson gives a really GREAT performance as Eugene O'Neill. The story is about a time period that is not shown on screen very much, and I just like that he plays Reid as pretty much of a jerk (maybe that wasn't too hard a task). The movie is good and well directed.

OK, that being said, I couldn't even watch The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone... It felt very painful right from the moment it started and I just couldn't go there... I have very protective feelings about Vivien. Thank you all for voicing what I thought was always true - that she was a great actress who was stupidly compared with Olivier, who I find less and less compelling on the screen over the years. Vivien is always compelling to watch and just gets better and better with time. There is always something new to see in her performances.

[charliechaplinfan]

Me too, I adore Vivien, Larry got to tell his side of the story but Vivien never got to tell hers. Sir Laurence Olivier was hailed as the greatest Biritsh acting talent when he died, I don't want to take anything away from him, he left behind some performances that I really enjoyed (Wuthering Heights, Hamlet, Rebecca), he was a big self promoter and a bit of a snob and influenced Vivien's career decisions. Personally I wish Viven had done more films, so consumate and great an actress deserves to have more films to remember her by, thankfully the ones we have are very good.

[JackFavell]

All the British stage folk were snobby about film, and I can understand that viewpoint. Most of the movies they were comparing to in the thirties were hardly the stuff of great drama.

I really do like Olivier, I didn't mean to seem harsh. He is in a down time for me right now I guess. Wuthering Heights and Richard III have always been great favorites. I rewatched The Entertainer recently and thought him quite fine, though not as good as I remember. I guess I see some of the string pulling just a little too much lately. I love some of Gielgud's and Richardson's performances on screen. They are great but I really feel that Vivien Leigh was miles better than any of them.

She instinctively had something, the depth, and the understanding of emotion that hardly anyone, stage or screen ever had. Maybe it's not even understanding....maybe it's something more innate. There is a feeling, at once animalistic and human.... she moves because her thoughts propel her to do so. Her thought processes are so clear, so deep and so natural that you can't help but be drawn to her. Each thought is tied to the next in some inexplicable way that is very true. When her heart sinks, you feel it more and you want to see what she will do next. Will she find something within her to pull herself up, or will she let the tide take her? She is tremendously exciting because of this instability... she doesn't telegraph her next actions, but they do make sense. She taps into a resource of human emotion far more complex than any other actress (or actor, except for perhaps Spencer Tracy). Her brain was wired in an odd way that made an entire range of emotions possible, where others might have one thought, she would have ten, all competing for control. She was the best and the brightest and I doubt anyone, male or female will ever match her performances on screen.

Sorry for gushing.

[charliechaplinfan]

You can gush to me, I think the same. I recently rewatched Waterloo Bridge, she fits that part like a glove. A Streetcar Named Desire is all the better for her presence. I really believed Blanche's delusional madness, I can't imagine anyone could play Blanche as well as Vivien, ever.