Red River

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charliechaplinfan
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Red River

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I've looked for a thread on this movie by doing a sreach and couldn't find one so I apologise if I'm going back over well trodden ground. I know this movie has come up on a couple of threads (the westerns and Howard Hawks thread)

I've always thought the casting of Wayne and Clift as inspired. Wayne is the obvious choice for Tom Dunston but Matthew Garth could have been played by a number of actors. This is the film that made me realise that John Wayne wasn't just a cowboy actor but a very good actor and an incredibly generous one too. I always feel that his scenes constantly favour Clift and Clift in turn makes the very best of them. Clift is more than a darling of Broadway but an actor who puts his all into whatever he portrays and that is what in part makes the movie so great for me.

Along with all that is the strong supporting cast, beautiful scenery and great dialogue.

Watching this film after reading a book about Hawks, Clift and Wayne and I still don't know what to believe about the relationship between the three men.

Hawks and Wayne being quite macho didn't quite disparage Clift but there are stories in the books about Hawks having to teach Clift how to fight and in the same breathe the very same books go into detail about how Clift trained for the role and impressed Hawks learning all the techniques he would need for the role. As for the fighting he'd took boxing lessons so wasn't going to be too intimidated facing Wayne.

I wanted to put it so much better but it's late here and my mind isn't functioning like it should at this time of night so I'll leave it brief. I'd love to be more educated by the western lovers of SSO.
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Red River

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I never realised Clift was so handsome either, I'm more used to seeing his later work but having recently seen Indiscretion of an American Wife too I'm getting rather curious.
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movieman1957
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Re: Red River

Post by movieman1957 »

You put it fine. Remember, Clift used his boxing skills to some degree in "From Here To Eternity." (I didn't even know he had them.) I can't give you much background of the movie. In fact, you seem to have more of it than I do.

The story goes that this film convinced Ford that Wayne could be more of an actor than he had shown. You'd think that Ford would have seen some spark of it though. Based on the balance of Clift's career you wouldn't have thought that this was a role that fit him but maybe, as he was relatively new to movies, helped him.
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Re: Red River

Post by CineMaven »

"I never realised Clift was so handsome either, I'm more used to seeing his later work but having recently seen Indiscretion of an American Wife too I'm getting rather curious." - charliechaplinfan.

You must see Monty in "A PLACE IN THE SUN." This is only one of two times my attention has ever been taken away from Elizabeth Taylor's beauty. The other? "Cat On A Hot Tin Roof." Those baby blues of his... :D
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Red River

Post by charliechaplinfan »

Now I must be one of the only people who can't see what it is about Elizabeth Taylor, there are lots of Hollywood beauties I'd rate higher than her but I know mine isn't the popular opinion. I've never seen Montgomery Clift in the role of a lover until recently, I'd forgotten his scenes in Red River with Joanne Dru, now I wish he'd done more of them. I have A Place in the Sun recorded off TV, I'll dig it out and watch it.

I think you're right Chris, the role of Matthew Garth was going to give any young actor a boost, if that actor could play it well. Montgomery Clift is clever casting and Hawk's instructions to Clift to not out act Wayne but underplay the role of Matthew just contrasts them further. The fight scene was filmed so the size difference between Clift and Wayne isn't as apparent, I think the book I'm reading said 5ft 10 to 6ft 4, it's only 6 inches, I guess the difference was more in the width of the two men.

The only small criticism I have is of the ending, when Joanne Dru has her say, to me that's unnecessary, the audience can see these men mean the world to one another, I didn't need a secondary character to voice it.
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Red River

Post by charliechaplinfan »

Cinemaven, I saw A Place in the Sun, I know exactly what you mean :wink: I'll write it up on What Have You Watched Lately, scratch that I started it's own thread.
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Re: Red River

Post by stuart.uk »

I've heard conflicting views on Wayne's relationship with Clift. One said, apart from their obvious differences Wayne went out of his way to be friendly with Clift. Another said Wayne refused to socialise with his young co-star.

RR is along with The Searchers IMO are the two greatest westerns. It also has my fav western sountrack.

In the remake I thought Bruce Boxleitner was a credible Matt, who kills a double crossing Cherry in a gunfight, but James Arness IMO surprisingly struggles as Dunson
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Re: Red River

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I've recently read a book on Wayne and Hawks and I'm currently reading a book on Monty and they both say the same thing. Duke thought Clift was arrogant but was happy to with Hawk's judgement about having him play Matt. They differ slightly on the fight, Hawk's claimed credit for teaching Monty how to throw a punch but knowing now how Monty would get into a role by immersing himself and training, he would have had boxing lessons.

The fight is the one let down in the movie, after it has been built up and built up, Howard Hawks lets Joanne Dru spoil it by stepping in too soon and being too schmaltzy.
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Re: Red River

Post by Rita Hayworth »

RED RIVER

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Starring John Wayne and Montgomery Cliff.

This is well made Western. I saw this movie for the first time and I was very impressed of how well Howard Hawks put this tremendous western that was wonderfully paced, brilliantly crafted, good acting by Wayne and Cliff. This is Montgomery Cliff best film that I ever seen in his short cinema career. He held his own with John Wayne just as good ... and that is a compliment to Hawks directing to make him on equal terms with the Duke. The Movie is just too realistic ... and I like that.

I was stunned by the photography, the corral fight with the Indians, and the clever use of the diary to tell the tales of the Chisholm Trail ... that I liked so well.

This movie even had Harry Carey and Harry Carey Jr. ... and another favorite of mine Noah Berry too!

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Joanna Dru pictured with Cliff above was a marvelous female lead in this movie and strong and determined Woman that tries to make the most of everything that she can to make things right with the friction between Dunson (Wayne) and Garth (Cliff).

I just shaking my head ... how in the world that I missed this wonderful western for all these years of watching movies. This is one of the best Westerns ever made and I would put it in the top 10 for sure. RED RIVER rocks.

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Walter Brennan was fabulous too. He is one of my favorite character actor that compliments both Wayne and Cliff as Nadine Groot. I always have a heart for him. He is warm, witty, and dependable. He makes any movie good and even better.

Thanks ANNE for the heads up!
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Re: Red River

Post by Vienna »

I think Montgomery Clift is excellent in Red River. I imagine it took a lot of training and directing by Hawks to get him to look so natural as a westerner. I'd like to think Wayne helped.
I sometimes compare Clift's performance in this with Rickie Nelson in the other Hawks/Wayne classic Rio Bravo. It really is night and day. Made ten years earlier, Clift would have made so much more of the character.
And I agree Joanne Dru did well too - such a shame she didn't become a bigger star.
And,yes,her dialogue at the end was totally unnecessary.
That long scene at the end where Wayne comes thundering towards Clift is so well done.
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Re: Red River

Post by RedRiver »

This is one of the great American movies, in spite of a weak ending. The first 130 minutes are so thrilling, I can forgive just about anything. The most beautiful cinematography I've ever seen, a fascinating conflict, and the quirky detail and nuance Howard Hawks was known for make this the best work of a great filmmaker. I never tire of this western classic.
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Re: Red River

Post by charliechaplinfan »

It's funny Vienna, I'd rather think that Wayne and Clift didn't get along or didn't share empathy, it heightens the tension, I'd assume that they didn't fall out but weren't much in sympathy with one another either. Whatever their feelings towards one another, their onscreen chemistry and tension along with the cinematography make this my favourite Western.
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Re: Red River

Post by JackFavell »

I think Hawks was concerned about working with Clift, a New York actor, but Clift came on the set having taken lessons from real cowboys on how to handle a horse. He was very professional, and Hawks realized that the fit was right with Wayne and the story.

Howard Hawks, from Who the Devil Made It (Peter Bogdanovich):

speaking of Montgomery Clift
HH: 'Oh nobody that good is difficult. All you have to do is get some ideas out of his head. You see, when he started in he was going to be tough, but Wayne blows people like that right off the screen. So I stopped him and and said, "Now look, Monty, the best thing to do is exactly the opposite.Otherwise, you're not going to end up anywhere. Take a cup of coffee and be drinking it and we'll just see your eyes. They won't know whether your smiling or what's happening.Just be entirely unconcerned about it." He did that, and when the scene was over Wayne came up to me and said, "Hey, that kid's gonna be OK- he's gon na be good." I said, "You're darn right he's gonna be good." Then he would see another chance to do a dramatic scene- he wanted to get angry at one fellow,- but I wanted him to do the thing where his hand is shaking and he just says, "You're lucky. That's how close you came." Well, after he saw how well these things worked, he became easier and easier to work with.'

PB: The big scene where they leave Wayne alone, leaning against his horse is particularly good.

HH: That was funny because Clift had been talking about this great scene he had coming up- when he goes up to Wayne and tells him that, with any luck, he'll get Wayne's herd to Abilene- and I said, "Don't be too sure about that." When we made the scene, Wayne had his back toward Monty and Walter, so Monty had to talk to the back of his neck until Wayne turned around and said, "I'm gonna kill you. Someday you're gonna look up and I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna kill ya, Matt," and turned around and didn't look at him anymore. It left Monty with egg on his face. I said, "You better get out of there."- they cut that out of the sound track- and he turned around and wandered aimlessly away. He didn't know what to do.

PB: This was Clift's first picture- how did you find him?

HH: I don't remember exactly- I think some agent brought him in. I liked his whole attitude. He'd never been on a horse and he had some time before the picture, so he came down two weeks early and went out after breakfast with a cowboy, taking a lunch with them, and they rode all day long- up hills and and down steep places, and through water and so on. And by the start of the picture he rode really well. You could tell that. And I taught him a little jump step to get into the saddle- he'd make a little hop into the stirrup. He worked- he really worked hard.
Last edited by JackFavell on March 4th, 2013, 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Red River

Post by RedRiver »

Fascinating! This is SO Hawks. Detail. Specifics. Sometimes not saying anything is more effective than a two minute speech. It sounds like his advice to the young actor was right on target.
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Re: Red River

Post by JackFavell »

I agree, Red! You can hear Hawks voice in this interview so distinctly!

He was SO smart to tell him not to play tough. I can see how that would have completely ruined the dynamic and arc of the story. And it could have actually stopped Monty's career. There would have been no place for the two of them to go from there - the love between them wouldn't have been clear at all and it makes the story about how far will either man be pushed, but you are especially waiting for Matt to blow.

I like the way he kind of played Clift in that scene where Wayne turns his back - he made him feel the discomfort of being blocked out, not knowing what to do, but then having to face his decision and go on, even though even he's not sure he can do it. Marvelous! Though not for Clift probably.
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