Eve Golden on Jean Harlow, Theda Bara, The Castles & More

Past chats with our guests.
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Jezebel38
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Post by Jezebel38 »

Miss Eve - I just obtained a copy of your book GOLDEN IMAGES, so after I peruse through it a bit, I'll probably have some more questions for you!

Moira / ChasFan - I always watch this film when it airs for two reasons; 2) to see the Mitzie & Gene number Gone About That Gal 1) KAY KENDALL! I absolutely scream with laughter at her tipsy rendition of Carmen's "L'amour et une oiseau"! If you meet a film buff who doesn't know who Kay is, you would show them this film, right?

btw, I'd like to know who came up with the idea of the "cheeky" Ladies in Waiting number.
egolden
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Post by egolden »

moirafinnie wrote:A few Kay Kendall queries for you, please:

1.) I was wondering if you could please talk a bit about one of the more interesting aspects of Kay Kendall's early life, the wartime events living through the Blitz in London and the subsequent effect, if any, that this may have had on her approach to life?

2.) Why do you think that Stanley Donen's Once More With Feeling (1960) is a relatively little known movie, despite the fact that, for all its flaws, it's a highly entertaining showcase for Kay Kendall's charm?

I just loved her throughout the film, though I felt that Yul Brynner's character, (unrepentent, dazzling bounder that he was), wears out his welcome about half way through the movie.

I'm so glad to read that Kendall had fun on Les Girls. I thought she stole the movie, lock, stock and hidden hip flask from everyone else, even Gene Kelly.

Regarding Rex Harrison: he must've had something more than simply attitude and a terrific theatrical talent to appeal to both Lilli Palmer and Kay Kendall.

3.)One question about Lilli Palmer & Kay Kendall, please, based on reading Lilli's autobiography, Change Lobsters and Dance. Did Lilli Palmer, who was well aware of Harrison's involvement with Kay Kendall while they were still married, really beseech him to marry the girl once Miss Palmer became aware of Kendall's leukemia?
1) Kay's sister Kim told me hair-raising stories about the girls being sent North to Hull at the beginning of the war, then coming back to London just in time for the Blitz! They slept with their mother and neighbors in the foyer of their apartment building, and frequently did not go to shelters, as people were dying there just as much as in their homes. Kim feels it really did give both of them a "take it all now" feeling throughout their lives. I was researching the Blitz in London during 9/11--it really gave me perspective--they went through a 9/11 every night for nearly a year!

2) Once More With Feeling pretty much sucked, and Kay knew it. She was great in it, but it is so hard to watch it, knowing she was dying by inches and they had to stop filming by lunchtime because she was wilting (shades of Saratoga!). She even had to take a mid-filming break to go to London for medical treatment. Donen could be a real SOB.

As for Rex's appeal, to paraphrase her sister on Porfirio Rubirosa: "Perhaps he had charms that were not evident over the luncheon table."

3) Both Lilli's and Rex's memoirs were very self-serving. When Kay was fooling around with Rex, Lilli already had her bit on the side, whom she later married. Both Lilli and Rex thought his marrying Kay was genuinely the right thing to do--he said Lilli would take him back afterward, Lilli said, "ummm, I never said that."
egolden
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Post by egolden »

charliechaplinfan wrote:I reread Silent Images about Anita Page. She sounds such a lovely person. Full of memories. I like the bit when she said that she wasn't married to her first husband because they didn't have a Catholic service. Have I understood that correctly? It made me smile :)

What she said about Mayer was spooky.'I can destroy Garbo in three movies, I'll never move a finger to help you again' He never did and her career suffered.

Following on from that do you have any opinion about Mayer destroying John Gilbert's career. I can see that he probably had the power to do it but would he have, Gilbert made a lot of money for the studio?

We keep mentioning Roscoe Arbuckle, do you think he was hung out to dry not just by the San Francisco attorney but by Zukor too?

Does all the research you do make you more cynical about aspects of the golden days of cinema? ie. are you more likely to believe the other two happened based on the knowledge you have gained or more likely to dismiss them as having a touch of the 'Hollywood Babylon'? (sorry to mention that bit of typing, again)
Anita is a doll. She is still a rather sweet and naive Catholic schoolgirl. She had some wonderful juicy stories, but every time she said something bad about someone, she would backtrack and add something nice: "Oh, but I respected Mr. Mayer! He made me a star!"

I don't think anyone will ever know what happened with John Gilbert. I have heard the "he punched Mayer in the bathroom when Mayer told him to sleep with Garbo" story, and the "Mayer punched Gilbert when he said his own mother was a whore" story. It's a wonder either of them got any work done with all those fistfights breaking out.

In the Fatty Arbuckle case, I come down strongly on the side of Virginia Rappe, whose reputation has been dragged through the mud by Adela Rogers St. John and her ilk. Remember, Arbuckle kept working for the rest of his life, even if not before the camera: Virginia, obviously, never worked again, and was the real victim in the case. As far as I'm concerned, everyone at that party should have been charged with negligent manslaughter for not getting her to a doctor as soon as she took sick!

I'm not cynical at all regarding Hollywood, though I never believe anything unless I find two reliable sources. In my books I make sure to tell the readers whether or not I believe certain stories or quotes, and why. If you start pretending to know things you don't you lose the reader's trust, and you damn well should. I think readers prefer to be told "I dunno."
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knitwit45
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Post by knitwit45 »

Miss Eve,
I'm not cynical at all regarding Hollywood, though I never believe anything unless I find two reliable sources. In my books I make sure to tell the readers whether or not I believe certain stories or quotes, and why. If you start pretending to know things you don't you lose the reader's trust, and you damn well should. I think readers prefer to be told "I dunno."
Wowsers! I am now an official fanl! How great to be treated as a thinking adult, instead of just one of the "great unwashed".

Thank you!

Nancy
egolden
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Post by egolden »

knitwit45 wrote: Wowsers! I am now an official fanl! How great to be treated as a thinking adult, instead of just one of the "great unwashed".

Thank you!

Nancy
Well, darling, I still don't know how often you wash . . .
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knitwit45
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Post by knitwit45 »

When those around me start to move away..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

egolden wrote:



In the Fatty Arbuckle case, I come down strongly on the side of Virginia Rappe, whose reputation has been dragged through the mud by Adela Rogers St. John and her ilk. Remember, Arbuckle kept working for the rest of his life, even if not before the camera: Virginia, obviously, never worked again, and was the real victim in the case. As far as I'm concerned, everyone at that party should have been charged with negligent manslaughter for not getting her to a doctor as soon as she took sick!

I'm not cynical at all regarding Hollywood, though I never believe anything unless I find two reliable sources. In my books I make sure to tell the readers whether or not I believe certain stories or quotes, and why. If you start pretending to know things you don't you lose the reader's trust, and you damn well should. I think readers prefer to be told "I dunno."
Eve regarding Arbuckle you are a breath of fresh air. I read a book recently about Arbuckle, he certainly wasn't guilty of the more lurid accusations. There was talk of a botched abortion. However Virginia's reputation came out in tatters. I've also been watching the Hollywood tv series which is brilliant. There is an episode about Arbuckle and again Virginia is smeared and Adela Rogers St John is one of the contributors. I understand the need to stand up for their friend who they feel was unfairly treated but why besmirch Virginia what purpose did it serve? I am aware I only got one persons opinion from the book but based on the evidence gathered from people who knew him, including his first wife it sounds unlikely that he violated her but we will never know. The poor girl's life ended and her family had to live without their daughter with the added shame of all the allegations.

Another breathe of fresh air regarding what you include in your books. If it isn't said by two reliable scources you won't draw any conclusions of your own from it but will admit you don't know.

This is why I bought two of your books and will buy more. I think the reader can make a distinction between quality biographers and sensationlists writers. I don't care for the later.

Credit has to go to to the publishers who publish the well researched tomes, the must take longer from start to finish and in some respects it must be easier to publicise a headline grabbing book in some of the tabloid papers.

I'm enjoying our this thread so much. Thank you Eve.
egolden
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Post by egolden »

charliechaplinfan wrote:Eve regarding Arbuckle you are a breath of fresh air. I read a book recently about Arbuckle, he certainly wasn't guilty of the more lurid accusations. There was talk of a botched abortion. However Virginia's reputation came out in tatters. I've also been watching the Hollywood tv series which is brilliant. There is an episode about Arbuckle and again Virginia is smeared and Adela Rogers St John is one of the contributors.

Credit has to go to to the publishers who publish the well researched tomes, the must take longer from start to finish and in some respects it must be easier to publicise a headline grabbing book in some of the tabloid papers.
Oh, Adela Rogers St. John was such a case. As Mary McCarthy said of Lillian Hellman, "every word she writes is a lie, including and and the." (By the way, I do a fabulous, spot-on imitation of her--if you hear of anyone in need of an Adela Rogers St. John impersonator, I'm their girl!)

Poor Virginia Rappe. She was a rising actress, got some very good reviews--but then became "that slut who got what she deserved." One very good researcher says she actually died of an untreated bladder infection--there were no antibiotics then, and a UTI could cause the bladder to fail. And if you've ever had a bladder infection, ouch. Poor girl.

I second your hurrah for university presses, the only ones publishing the "non-marketable" books that the big houses won't touch. A hurrah too for houses like McFarland and BearManor, who do the best they can with virtually no money.
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Eve, it has been so nice talking with you, please stay :wink:
Ollie
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Post by Ollie »

I am such a fickle, mood-based reader. I'll wade into a subject, tippy-toes first, and suddenly find I'm swimming deeper or farther than anticipated, and loving every minute. Then, some episode will seem curious to me, and I might be able to find a second book on the subject, only to see that one event (or others) debunked and countermanded. Who do I believe? Well, maybe a third book will break the tie...

At that point, my flavor for the subject is gone.

For the first time, here is an author (Golden) that writes with those contingencies - with an understanding akin to my heart's (stomach's?) tolerance for Truth vs. Who Knows What Really Happened? Fist fights in men's rooms, after all - I doubt either man would tell me exactly what happened, or if I'd truly be interested. "Flush and wash yer hands" is often my thoughts on most subjects. ha ha

Thank you for those episodes where you've taken the time to relate different sides of the same coin, and for giving us a wonderful "I dunno" in those cases. THANK YOU. This is why I flee from fiction occasionally and return to your more human tales.
egolden
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Post by egolden »

Ollie wrote:I am such a fickle, mood-based reader. I'll wade into a subject, tippy-toes first, and suddenly find I'm swimming deeper or farther than anticipated, and loving every minute . . . .Thank you for those episodes where you've taken the time to relate different sides of the same coin, and for giving us a wonderful "I dunno" in those cases. THANK YOU. This is why I flee from fiction occasionally and return to your more human tales.
No, thank you, my dear Gaston! I'm the same way: like that time I got mired in Russian books. I read every Russian history book I could find, and Dostoyevski, and Tolstoy and Gogol--then all of a sudden, I lost interest it and never went back.

Someone once asked me if I wrote fiction and I said, "Golly, I hope not!" I do go off on tangents, and I try to keep that to a minumum. But I write like I am chatting to a friend. So when, for instance, Irene Castle goes to a party with an actress who dies of a drug overdose that night, I have to keep myself from actually typing, "Oh, I forgot to tell you--this is so totally cool, pull up a chair and have some tea, Maude!"
Ollie
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Post by Ollie »

egolden wrote:"...I got mired in Russian books. I read every Russian history book..."
You ARE a sicko. And WAY too similar to me. Oh no!

For me, the single event was, "So where did Stalin spend that first week when the Germans invaded?" One book by an American and Russian published in 1990 said he fled Moscow, fearful that the Red Army which he'd been purging for years would come after HIM. One book published by a Soviet author in the early '60s said Stalin led the heroic fight back. An English professor published in 1979 said he fled.

Chances are good that he fled. Stalin, after all, never showed personal heroics. He wasn't the first gangsta with a posse to bolster him.

But back to cinema, the Gay Revelation Avalanche perverted my interest in so many personalities and so many Times. "I'm sorry - I just don't care - that has NO bearing on the work I've seen on-screen - tell me an episode where their play-time affected MY enjoyment of an on-screen performance?" Of course, I wanted the same answers to Jack Warner's casting couch. Or Mayer's, Sam Goldwyn's, Errol Flynn's or anyone's silk scarf that gets caught in the rear axle of their roadster.

Boy... I really miss the GOOD supermarket tabloids. The ones with front pages NOT about divorces and who's with who or why not. I want to read MORE about Elvis' Two-Headed Alien Baby returning to Earth. THAT, to me, is the real news out of Hollywood! Viva la difference
egolden
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Post by egolden »

Ollie wrote:
egolden wrote:Boy... I really miss the GOOD supermarket tabloids. The ones with front pages NOT about divorces and who's with who or why not. I want to read MORE about Elvis' Two-Headed Alien Baby returning to Earth. THAT, to me, is the real news out of Hollywood! Viva la difference
I was so upset when the Weekly World News went out of business. How am I to know who the Bat Boy and the space aliens are supporting for President this year?
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moira finnie
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Post by moira finnie »

Hi Eve,
Welcome and thanks for joining us for Weekend Number 2 at the SSO.

In reading several of your entertaining books, I'm struck by some recurrent themes, particularly by the way that the theatre and movies offered young women an opportunity to express themselves. I thought that this element was especially evident in the the books Anna Held and the Birth of Ziegfeld's Broadway and Vamp: The Rise and Fall of Theda Bara. The sometimes outrageous, picaresque adventures of these two live wires seemed to help them escape the ingrained prejudices against both women and Jewish citizens in this country and abroad while enabling them to elude conventional female status--for a time, at least. Do you think that they were consciously making these choices, or, as in the Anna Held's case, was it just a matter of circumstance?

When the public became aware of the origins of these truly plucky young women, do you think their adventurous, and in some ways groundbreaking public lives, helped women in general and altered anti-Semitic attitudes?

I was wondering what led you to explore Anna Held? Have you seen the fragments of 1901 film said to be in the Library of Congress showing Held sipping champagne, (I believe this sequence is drawn from her musical hit, "Papa's Bride")?

Thank you.
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Jezebel38 wrote:
Moira / ChasFan - I always watch this film when it airs for two reasons; 2) to see the Mitzie & Gene number Gone About That Gal 1) KAY KENDALL! I absolutely scream with laughter at her tipsy rendition of Carmen's "L'amour et une oiseau"! If you meet a film buff who doesn't know who Kay is, you would show them this film, right?

btw, I'd like to know who came up with the idea of the "cheeky" Ladies in Waiting number.
After all our talk about Les Girls I put it on again this afternoon. Kay is so funny singing Carmen. On second viewing it struck me how dull Joy's character was in comparison with the other two lovely ladies, particularly Kay.

Kay towered over Gene in their solo number but the thing that struck me the most and Eve might know the answer to is how small Kay's waist was. Was she famous for this? Even allowing for fifties underwear her shape was very hourglass.

Eve, in relation to Jean Harlow who I love on the screen but have yet to read a good biography of her (at least I know where to get one now :D ) in the meantime I've read various theories as to whether Paul Bern committed suicide or was murdered. Do you have a firm theory on this? I've always favoured suicide but I'm not convinced by the offiical story.
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