Fred and Ginger - in order

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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I've got to see that one, that's the top of my list, just to see that scene.
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intothenitrate
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

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charliechaplinfan wrote:I've noticed Ginger's ability to reflect the songs that Fred sings to her, to me reacting to a song that is being sung by the other performer is quite a skill and the fact she manages to have this ability when she dances too makes her for me his best partner.
Well put....and she does it without looking like she'd capitulating...she just lets her reserve slip ever so slightly.
I don't know if I've mentioned my love of Fred being able to put over a song, he has a good voice, not the best by Hollywood's standards but he really knows what to do with these numbers by Berlin, Gershwin and Porter, his ability to cajole, yearn or just simply persuade is a joy to listen to, I quite regularly listen to his songs for the pleasure alone.
Yes. And his renditions are always super precise. [No surprise there].
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I really must get to the last two films, I think it's because they are the last two and it's been an awfully pleasant journey.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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intothenitrate
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by intothenitrate »

One of those if the Vernon and Irene Castle biopic, right? It's been a while since I've seen that one, and I don't own a copy.

...Even if the last two are somewhat "off-apex," I trust you'll fill us in on all of the redeeming qualities.
"Immorality may be fun, but it isn't fun enough to take the place of one hundred percent virtue and three square meals a day."
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I didn't take to Vernon and Irene Castle first time, probably because it was so different, I'm hoping to view it through new eyes.
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

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I revisited The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle my initial response to it was one of disappointment possibly because it doesn't fit at all with the preceding films. Viewing it again I was glad to get a more favourable impression. It has the constraints of being a biograpy and Irene Castle being very much alive and adviser on the film must have had a say in the style of the film, she designed Ginger's costumes, being quite a fashion idol in her day, Ginger's outfits are stylish but without many of the adornments of her usual wardrobe.

The film itself, Fred as Vernon is a second rate comedian who meets Irene on a Sunday in Rochester, she is a budding actress and does a funny and cringeworthy turn as a clown for Vernon. Before this scene the meeting of Vernon and Irene in the water is a novelty for Fred, soaking wet, he loses some of that dignity he always portrays, seeing his comic sketch he loses even more, it cuts across his usual debonair image momentarily. A lovely dance at the train station to By The Light of the Silvery Moon shows Vernon dancing skills and soon he and Irene are dancing together. They fall in love, Fred sings to Ginger a lovely song that I'm not sure of the title of but it's lovely, a very tender moment in the series, then there is a kiss, another one, wow, it took years to get to the first one and we get treated to two in this movie. We then see them trying out for shows determined to dance together and very nearly starving together, finally their fairy Godmother really does arrive in the form of Edna May Oliver and they get to dance at the Cafe Du Paris. A sequence of them dancing different styles of dancing, a very chaste tango, I'd love to have seen the precode version. The Castle's are so successful they seem to have their name on everything, they retire but the war intervenes, Irene goes to HOllywood, Vernon joins the Flying Corp, a narrow escape in France and then a transfer to train flyers in America but tragedy intervenes and Vernon is killed.

Walter Brennan plays the supporting roles here, a real departure from his usual kind of roles, he hasn't much to do to be fair but it's nice to see him.

The film ends, sadly with Irene waiting for Vernon, he's hired a band to sing all the songs of their life and she stands at the window watching whilst a ghostly Vernon and Irene dance outside, putting an end to the film and more importantly one of the most important film partnerships, the tears in my eyes were for the end of the thirties Fred and Ginger, the end scene seems so fitting and to audeinces watching at the time perhaps they realised that this was it for Fred and Ginger too.

Summing up I'd been hard on The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle, seeing it again I appreciate a charming biography and a departure of styles for the two stars.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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intothenitrate
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by intothenitrate »

Thanks for the write-up, CCF. You brought it all back for me.

Since I've been following your thread, I've been reminded of the (precious few) dancing lessons I've had. One pointer I got about the Swing style was that the partners are supposed to create tension between themselves by actually pushing the other gently away. This aids the physics of the dance, but it's also kind of a nice metaphor for the allure of the Fred and Ginger partnership.

In the thirties formula, there was always some friction between them, relieved temporarily during the dancing sequences. For the sake of this story, they were a devoted couple. Do you think that the absence of conflict between them had something to do with its slight oddness?
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

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I think so, it was the last one I watched years ago and it didn't fit the push and pull formula that had become so fimiliar. This time I thought it was nice for them to be in a more conventional love story, Ginger appears younger in the first part of the film when she's portraying the young Irene than in any of the films that have gone before, probably because she's so often the wisecracking dame. I actually found that I was enjoying the fact that they loved one another without something coming along to disrupt their romance. It was nice to see the straighter Fred, there's not often room for drama in musicals so it's nice to see and he certainly pulled at my heartstrings. Ginger, I know she can play straight and I think she really enjoys a straight role, she's brilliant here as Irene, the film is told from her point of view and I felt her dread and forboding for Vernon being in the airforce.

I often like to watch a few films by a certain actor, I've never watched them in order before, I wonder having watched these in order if it's an experiment to be repeated. I have discovered things that I hadn't fully realised before. I didn't realise how much I liked Fred's delivery of a song until I've watched the series, I've always been partial to the dancing but the songs, they move the action as much as the dancing and what Fred doesn't deliver in terms of on screen kissing and romancing, he delivers through dance and the his renditions of these standards, they're simply sublime.

I've read that Ginger didn't like talking about these films and that she felt she'd achieved more than these films she made with Fred. I do agree with her, both performers went on to have successful careers but I hope when they looked back at them after the passage of time they saw how good they were. I've not watched everything else they've made but I haven't seen anything that compares with the world of these Fred and Ginger films. I don't think either of them got a better on screen partner, Fred had Cyd Charisse which for me is the closest he got to the heat generated by Ginger and Judy Garland being able to capture the fun. Ginger got lots of lovely leading men but did anyone ever win her such debonair charm as Fred.

I'd always enjoyed the supporting actors but watching them like this makes one realise the wealth of talent employed to support Fred and Ginger.

It's often levelled at these films that the scripts became less believable and the films lose their sparkle as they go along but it's not the case, I was more fimiliar with the earlier movies but it's the later films I've found that I've enjoyed more although I can't tell you why this is the case.

I can understand why a partnership would want to split up after so long, I can only manage a wistful sigh at there being no more of the thirties series.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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sandykaypax
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

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Alison, I've just caught up with this entire thread. I've so enjoyed reading your thoughts on the Astaire-Rogers films. I am a HUGE fan. I have the box dvd sets that were released a few years ago, and now I'm thinking about revisiting the films. I wish that the picture was a bit sharper on all of them--I would love it if they could be completely remastered and put on blu-ray.

My favorite is Swing Time, hands down. But I do have a special fondness for The Gay Divorcee and Follow the Fleet--they are rarely talked about, and they are good.

My two cents on the Bojangles of Harlem number--someone upthread mentioned that Astaire had meant the number as a sincere homage to Bill Robinson, and it's obvious to me that is what was intended. He copies Robinson's style, and the makeup is there to make him resemble Robinson--it's not the exaggerated "minstrel show" type of makeup with the white mouth painted around the natural mouth.

I have to say that Carefree is my least favorite of the films--just not enough dancing for me. I actually like The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle, even though it doesn't follow the formula. But I'm a sucker for bio-pics...

I've been thinking about the oft-quoted quip about Ginger Rogers doing everything backward and in high heels. I really kind of hate that statement. Rogers was a great dancer, and Astaire's best partner, IMO, BUT Astaire is the superior dancer. When one learns a dance, the woman doesn't learn the man's steps and then somehow do the steps backwards. The steps are learned the way that they will be danced. I've never felt that what I had to learn when learning any partnered movement was more difficult than what the man had to learn. AND, I don't have to lift anyone. My mini-rant over. :)

Sandy K
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intothenitrate
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by intothenitrate »

Isn't there a number they dance to a little later, in an MGM technicolor production? I'll have to go over to IMDB to see what that was. I just remember the expression on Ginger's face, telling not only the ostensible story of the film, but (in my mind) the story of being filmed, dancing with Fred again, and not being the spring chicken she once was. There's a hesitancy, a slight furrow in her brow, before she gracefully gets into the dance.
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by knitwit45 »

The Barkelys of Broadway????
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Fred and Ginger - in order

Post by charliechaplinfan »

The only one I've still got to watch, I shall watch for that expression, I have read somewhere that Ginger was not as clean on the lines in this later film, it's a bit harsh, she hadn't danced with Astaire for 10 years and stepped into Judy's shoes, from what I remember she wasn't terrible and was quite suited for the role.

Thanks for your comments Sandy. I agree about Ginger, she's Fred's best partner but Fred is in his own league. The comment that Ginger did everything Fred did but in high heels, is oft quoted, I've never heard her say it, only read her words and written down they can be twisted into something that doesn't do her credit. I'm sure she felt like the junior partner and sidelined by Fred and Hermes Pan, Fred only said nice things about Ginger, I hope Ginger's comments were in humour and nothing else.

I'm glad you felt like Bojangles of Harlem was a tribute, it's how I felt it was but would hate for one person to watch it and think there was anything adherently racist about it.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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