Citizen Kane

Is Citizen Kane the Greatest Film of all time

Yes
8
23%
No,it is vastly overrated
6
17%
Very good, but not the best
21
60%
 
Total votes: 35

RedRiver
Posts: 4200
Joined: July 28th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by RedRiver »

My first look at this dark, intriguing classic was at a college screening. I was still in high school, but the public was invited. You know the scene. The projector whirring in the background. Print a little spotty, but that's OK. The roll down screen nowhere near the size of those in real movie theatres. But a lot bigger than most TVs. What was remarkable for that time was that there were no commercials. Long before the age of video, cable TV in its infancy, when you watched a classic movie, you usually got commercials. Not this night!
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by JackFavell »

I accidentally just voted again. I don't think I was supposed to, but I couldn't resist.

Yes I think it's by far the best film of all time. No doubts at all in my mind.

I'm so glad you got to see it with the Bride and the Princess, Chris....that makes you the King, right? Was this your first time seeing it? Or just on the big screen? I can see waiting all your life to see it on the big screen, so pardon the question if you've seen it before.
User avatar
movieman1957
Administrator
Posts: 5522
Joined: April 15th, 2007, 3:50 pm
Location: MD

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by movieman1957 »

I have seen it before - several times. First time on the big screen. CA saw it on the big screen without me way back when. Just a chance to make up that missed date.

King? Hardly. Thanks anyway.
Chris

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
User avatar
fxreyman
Posts: 49
Joined: May 1st, 2009, 10:16 pm
Location: Libertyville, Illinois

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by fxreyman »

I am one of those movie fans who at one time may have thought that Kane was the greatest film of all time, but ever since FrankGrimes and I have been discussing films over on the message boards I have been convinced by him that there really are no great films. Only favorite films. Or in the case of The Essentials, essential films. But everything that we all write about is all based on our own feelings about films.

Some random thoughts.....

Every thought we jot down is of a subjective nature. Is this not true? I mean who amongst us here or over on the message boards writes in an objective style of POV? In my opinion, none of us write in an objective way. And that is because what we are doing is presenting our own subjective opinions in a forum dedicated to the silver screen.

From an online source, Old Dominion University:
Subjective information is one person's opinion. In a newspaper, the editorial section is the place for subjectivity. It can be based on fact, but it is one person's interpretation of that fact. In this way, subjective information is also analytical.

Objective information reviews many points of view. It is intended to be unbiased. News reporters are supposed to be objective and report the facts of an event. Encyclopedias and other reference materials provide objective information.
So as much as I would love to write down the films I consider to be the greatest films of all time, a list like that would be just my own subjective thoughts. That is not to say that we do not spend any less time analyzing movies anymore than the so-called experts.

So what I am going to do is say this about Kane.

Was it ahead of it's time? Yes.

Was it technically superior than many other films of it's time? Yes

Was it an innovative film? Yes

Was it treated differently than many other films of it's time? Yes

And was it treated or thought of differently at the time and since it first came out because of Orson Welles and his attitudes toward the film studios? Yes

There are many reasons to love and hate this film. I neither love or hate this film. As far as I am concerned, it was a wonderful film that came along at the wrong time. It was so far ahead of conventional thinking that I think that is why Welles was treated the way he was. Of course, his attitudes towards the studios did not help any either.

If this film was made after the war it would have been treated so much differently. But being made when it was it had a lot to do with how film was looked at by both the critics and the general public. I think critics were possibly more interested in the film than the general public was. And so were film scholars. As it continues to be. But in the end, whether it is consider great or the greatest does not really matter. It is what we all think of it in our own ways.

Again, I like the film. I enjoy watching it. I have a dvd of the film. It is on list of essential films every person should watch or at the very least include in their own collections. But to sit here and regard it as the greatest film of all time? No. That type of reasoning is way above my pay scale.
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by JackFavell »

That's interesting Rey and seems true to me. One can probably not label any film as 'best' any more than one can label any food 'best' - except as it is for each individual person. I think potatoes would be high on my list. But you might put beef ahead of potatoes on yours. one can make only a generalization when compiling a cross section of individuals likes and dislikes... and does that cross section of critics opinions really apply for everyone in the entire world?

What the "best of" lists should do is include a set of criteria as to why (Vertigo, Citizen Kane) comes out as the "best" movie of all time. Each critic would have the same set of criteria for making the judgment. I can't remember in the articles recently if this was presented or not, or if each critic made up his own set of criteria. It's all subjective anyway as you rightly say, so does it matter in the scheme of things? If it keeps classic films in the public eye, then great. That's a plus.
RedRiver
Posts: 4200
Joined: July 28th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by RedRiver »

The two of you have addressed this issue nicely. There are many outstanding movies. There are your personal favorites. There are qualities you'd have to be blind to overlook. But is one film clearly better than another, with no room for discussion? Probably not. CITIZEN KANE is as good as just about any movie I've seen. So is GRAPES OF WRATH. IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE is too sentimental for some tastes. To me, it's rich with meaning. This could be a never ending argument if you let it.

I do submit that all these classics are better than THE THREE STOOGES MEET HERCULES. That, to me, seems pretty clear!
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by JackFavell »

I think it's safe to agree on that. :D

I think that the attempt to be objective is a noble one and can lead to better critical thinking. I wish more journalists nowadays at least TRIED to be objective when reporting the news, but that's another story altogether. There is clearly a difference for me between my favorites and the movies I think are 'best'. But I'm not quite sure where to draw the line sometimes. 'Good' can mean well made, or it can mean deeply meaningful, or it can mean both or neither.

sigh. It's difficult trying to pinpoint what makes a movie 'best'. Lately, with these lists, I think 'best' has become synonymous with "most influential"... and I'm not sure I think those two things are interchangeable.
User avatar
Rita Hayworth
Posts: 10068
Joined: February 6th, 2011, 4:01 pm

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by Rita Hayworth »

JackFavell wrote:
sigh. It's difficult trying to pinpoint what makes a movie 'best'. Lately, with these lists, I think 'best' has become synonymous with "most influential"... and I'm not sure I think those two things are interchangeable.
I think you are right Jack.

To me, they should not be interchangeable and I for one think if anyone try to list films whether "best" and "most influential" ... I see that they should kept separate.

In case of Citizen Kane ... I would not put it in the best category ... but in the most influential category instead. And, it will not make the top ten; but the top 25 instead. I just don't care for this film at all.

Remember, I'm hard of hearing and Orson Welles is one of the most difficult actor for me to understand on the big screen. When, I watched The Lady From Shanghai with Closed Captioning for the first time ... I enjoyed it much, much, much more with it. To me, I watched Citizen Kane with Closed Captioning and I just had a hard time enjoying it. To me, its influenced a lot of people ... but I just don't put this in the best category at all. I seen Citizen Kane twice in my lifetime and vowed never see it again.

What is BEST is best.

What is MOST INFLUENTIAL is most influential.

They should always be kept separate at all costs.
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by JackFavell »

It seems incredible to me that Orson Welles with his strong voice and extremely expressionistic camera work would be hard to understand for the hard of hearing. Perhaps his sense of irony is difficult to capture for the hearing impaired? And sound is SO important in his films, it's what I like best about Citizen Kane (which I would still rank as the best film ever made).

I can't think of any movies that I have vowed never to see again.
User avatar
Rita Hayworth
Posts: 10068
Joined: February 6th, 2011, 4:01 pm

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by Rita Hayworth »

Thanks for sharing this Jack! :)
User avatar
Professional Tourist
Posts: 1671
Joined: March 1st, 2009, 7:12 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by Professional Tourist »

It's interesting to me that the sound quality of Citizen Kane is under discussion, because that's one of the bigger issues I have with the film. Although it is innovative and influential I have never liked it -- I don't like any of the characters and I find the story/plot uninteresting. [I have the same problem with The Magnificent Ambersons.] The first time I saw Kane was during the sixtieth anniversary limited re-release, at the Ziegfeld theater here in town -- I went along with a friend who was a fan of the film and wanted to take in a good-quality screening.

For those unfamiliar, the Ziegfeld was an old-style cinema, one cavernous room with velvet-covered seats, one big screen and a mezzanine, with an excellent sound system. And real projectionists.

Well, I found the picture rather dull and kept nodding off -- but what kept waking me up was the cacophonous sound, which would jangle my nerves so hard I would want to grab the sides of my head and scream! But I just covered my ears instead. Some scenes were all right, but some scenes, especially ones with several people where more than one would talk at a time -- would clobber me! I couldn't understand how this technologically advanced film could have such bad sound!

On occasions when I watch the DVD (not often) I have the same problem with the sound, but coming from a laptop computer it is much more manageable for me than it was at the Ziegfeld.
RedRiver
Posts: 4200
Joined: July 28th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by RedRiver »

I think that the attempt to be objective is a noble one and can lead to better critical thinking

I agree, Wendy. I try, but with little success. Is the expertly crafted work superior to the one that touches or inspires me? Not in my book! In the long run, art is an emotional experience. Not a technical one. That's why I consider sentimental work by Capra, Ford and Wilder great movies.

'Good' can mean well made, or it can mean deeply meaningful, or it can mean both or neither

Let's go with both. ON THE WATERFRONT meets all the criteria. So does THE APARTMENT. BEN-HUR is an epic that makes the grade. The best of Chaplin, even Woody Allen, reach me on all levels. And yes, so does CITIZEN KANE.
User avatar
ChiO
Posts: 3899
Joined: January 2nd, 2008, 1:26 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by ChiO »

Some random observations:

If there are no objective standards, then all films are equal (in that there is no way logically to declare X is better than Y). Or, if one says that X is better than Y, the statement is objectively false because the statement is solely subjective. And the opinion of a 6-year old seeing his or her first movie is just as weighty as that of (pick the film scholar or critic).

The key may be to distinguish between criteria (JF was getting at that) and their application. We can probably come up with a relatively short list of "objective" criteria that make a movie outstanding (to avoid "great", "best", et al.). We would each, however, likely apply them differently to each movie -- and likely assign different weights to each criterion. No film sabermetrics.

Polls are a fun, but funny, thing. Nine of us say that X is the "greatest" film on a Top Ten list, but a tenth person doesn't include it; however, all ten of us have Y as #2 on our lists. Which is the "greater" movie?

Then, of course, any declaration of "greatest" or "best" carries an unstated caveat: "of all of the movies I've seen."

But one thing is clear: CITIZEN KANE is the greatest, best and my favorite movie of all-time (or at least from among those I've seen).

P.S. I'd forgotten about this thread. Thanks for reviving it. In looking back, I only posted on it once and, I do believe, it was my first post on SSO. So it goes.
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
User avatar
JackFavell
Posts: 11926
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by JackFavell »

the opinion of a 6-year old seeing his or her first movie is just as weighty as that of (pick the film scholar or critic).
Hey don't be dissing 6 year olds.... depending on the critic (and the six year old) I might be more inclined to agree with the 6 year old.
User avatar
ChiO
Posts: 3899
Joined: January 2nd, 2008, 1:26 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Citizen Kane

Post by ChiO »

Okay, you got me on the Gene Shalit factor.
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
Post Reply