The Philosophy of Westerns

[ken123]

Have the bulk of Western Films,made from silent era on, had a philosophic viewpoint ? Other than good vs evil, often pitting big ranchers vs farmers, have they emphasized individualism or community, or a mixture. Another question : What type of Western do you like ? I will leave the categories up to the members.

[MikeBSG]

I seem to remember a book called "Six Guns and Society" which traced the phases of the Western. There was the "classic" plot, in which a wanderer becomes part of the community and "cleans up the town." Then in the Fifties, you had the "revenge" plot. At the end of the Fifties, you saw the start of the "professional" plot, in which the hero did what he did to prove his own status.

To fit actual movies into this scheme, I suppose you would say that "Dodge City," "My Darling Clementine" and "Shane" are all part of the classic plot. The wanderer cleans up the community. He doesn't stay, but he clearly values being part of the community.

Revenge westerns would be like "Winchester 73" "The Searchers" and "Seven Men from Now." The heroes pursue private goals/gratification. "Winchester" and "Seven" allow the hero to commit to a woman (so bringing him into the community is implied) but the "Searchers" famously has the community shut the door on its hero.

Professional westerns start with "Rio Bravo" in which the community is largely invisible. You have the good guys fighting the bad guys because it is their job. I think most of the professional plots, such as "The Magnificent Seven," "The Professionals" and "The Wild Bunch" ended up taking place in Mexico, perhaps as a way of avoiding the issue of fitting it with American society.

[MissGoddess]

Well Ken, the only question you put I feel qualified to answer is the most subjective one of which type do I prefer. I never actually thought of westerns falling into differing categories but you and Mike have made me think. I do find the "lone hero" who rides into the picture and basically saves the girl, the town/settlment or "the day" to be unfailingly entertaining in the hands of good directors. I'm not as fond of the ones where it takes a "bunch" or even "seven" to do the job. Hee!

I can more easily say the ones I don't like are the later westerns I've seen, including the spaghetti westerns (too violent for my tastes). Maybe if someone else had starred in the Clint Eastwood movies besides Clint Eastwood I would have liked them better, I just never warmed to him as an actor.

OK, enough hedging, my favorite type of western is a John Ford western.

[Dewey1960]

The Westerns I prefer are the ones that emphasize the visual aspects of the medium with respect, in particular, to the dynamics between characters and their geography. No one even comes close to John Ford in achieving that objective with such supreme cosnsistency. But that's not exactly true: Anthony Mann, Budd Boetticher and Sam Peckinpah came close on a number of occasions. Looking at the films of those four directors provides (for me at least) a magnificent canvas of images transformed into ideas by men who cared passionately about what they were doing. Each of them, I believe, had they lived a hundred years earlier would have no doubt lived lives similar to those they depicted so beautifully on the movie screen.

[MissGoddess]

The Westerns I prefer are the ones that emphasize the visual aspects of the medium with respect, in particular, to the dynamics between characters and their geography. No one even comes close to John Ford in achieving that objective with such supreme cosnsistency. But that's not exactly true: Anthony Mann, Budd Boetticher and Sam Peckinpah came close on a number of occasions. Looking at the films of those four directors provides (for me at least) a magnificent canvas of images transformed into ideas by men who cared passionately about what they were doing. Each of them, I believe, had they lived a hundred years earlier would have no doubt lived lives similar to those they depicted so beautifully on the movie screen.

Good point!! I'm sure lots of those directors dreamed of being cowboys in real life when they were little---and even as adults!

[Mr. Arkadin]

While I grew up with westerns, I'm pretty specialized in what I like/dislike. I'm also not a huge John Wayne fan although I do like some of his work. I have problems watching some films because of the portrayal of indians which was generally poor in many early films (although there are obviously exceptions that I enjoy anyway).

As far as directors go, I'm not really partial to one above another. I look for depth of character, a good story (that hasn't been recycled a hundred times), great cinematography, and great performances. Someone at TCM (Sholmes?) wanted to know everyones 100 favorite westerns. I'm not sure I could name 50, but what I like--I really enjoy.

[jdb1]

Here's my take on the philosophy of westerns:

The loner, either by choice or cast out by public sentiment. He goes wherever he wants, does what he wants, lives by his wits, asks for no help.

Out in the wilderness -- infinite space, infinite opportunity and, infinite occasions for self-analysis. He knows and trusts himself best (and his horse second). He is cool, calm and brave, because he is in control of his own existence and destiny.

One against many, defending the innocent, generally facing seemingly overwhelming odds. He may prevail, he may not, but he always does the right thing in the end.

He has his own code of honor, perhaps unconventional, but he sticks by it.

He comes into contact with society once in a while, maybe finds romance, but doesn't necessarily settle down.

If he lived in China or Japan, they'd probably call him a Zen Master. But since he's in the Old West, he's just a cowpoke, tryin' to get by the best he can, ma'am.

I think all of the above are some of the reasons westerns are so very popular in countries other than the US. Such behavior and opportunities are so different from what's expected outside of our own country, and are so longed for by so many.

[MissGoddess]

Great analysis!

[jdb1]

Great analysis!

Well, thank you MissG, but you know, besides thinking about such things, I have very often discussed the western genre with people from other countries in my capacity as sometime English tutor/America explainer at a place in Manhattan called The International Center.

My experience is that most non-Americans respond very positively to the idea of the western, even if they aren't too thrilled with the presentation and treatment of the Native American. As far as the ethos of the romanticized cowboy is concerned, they find him enthralling.

The idea of a completely independent, self-reliant person making his own way in an undeveloped place has been a very appealing one to my students. This is an idea that is not native to many of the people I have met at the IC, and their interest in what they perceive as boundless American hospitality can be partly explained to them by suggesting they watch a western movie. This gives me a chance to point out to them the concept that Americans in the past were forced of necessity to rely, as it were, on the kindness of strangers - there wasn't anyone else out in the vastness of the undiscovered land. On the other hand, because there was so much space and so much as yet undone, one could get by on one's wits and talents, and rise very high. This is another part of our American heritage that my students found very attractive. Not necessarily the material factor, but the idea that everyone has the potential to control his/her destiny.

I think that these elements of our makeup may have been lost over time (not that it was a very long time by historical standards), and when we see a good western movie, it brings it back to us, even if our generational experience has been totally urban.

[By the way, off the subject a bit, you might like to know the most common comment I have gotten from the non-American members of the International Center over the years. It's this: "I never realized that Americans work so hard."]

[MissGoddess]

How interesting! I love talking about such things with my friends, most of whom are not from America and having lived both here and abroad it's interesting to compare people's perceptions. My own Mother, who is German, was always enthralled by the "cowboy hero" and when she met my Dad, a westerner, when he was posted in Italy in the Air Force, she thought she'd found him. Ironically, that ideal is exactly what my father despises in a huge degree. He is, or was---I don't know maybe he's mellowed?---totally intellectual and anti-anything that was traditional, like many here in that generation. I think I would have been closer to his father, my grandfather, had I known him, than I was to Dad. But I digress.

So I guess I get the fondness for westerns from my German Mother's side. Even though we disagree on a lot of things, at least my Mom and I agree that Gary Cooper (as an example) is a great example of the American ideal man of the west, as it used to be conceived. A lot of Europeans in her generation felt that way.

Do you find many young internationals are interested in westerns, or the west?

[jdb1]

Do you find many young internationals are interested in westerns, or the west?

I think they are interested in "The West" only so far as it is able to reflect their image of Cowboys & Indians. It's the movies and their myths that interest the internationals. The whole pioneer thing is also very fascinating to them, mostly because of the vast geographical scale of the treks taken by our previous generations. And so they love to see westerns, the bigger the country depicted the better - lots of horizon, lots of large scale shots, the hero framed, solitary, against a sunset sky, etc.

But isn't that what we local folk like to see too?

[Mr. Arkadin]

Here's my take on the philosophy of westerns:

The loner, either by choice or cast out by public sentiment. He goes wherever he wants, does what he wants, lives by his wits, asks for no help.

Out in the wilderness -- infinite space, infinite opportunity and, infinite occasions for self-analysis. He knows and trusts himself best (and his horse second). He is cool, calm and brave, because he is in control of his own existence and destiny.

One against many, defending the innocent, generally facing seemingly overwhelming odds. He may prevail, he may not, but he always does the right thing in the end.

He has his own code of honor, perhaps unconventional, but he sticks by it.

He comes into contact with society once in a while, maybe finds romance, but doesn't necessarily settle down.

If he lived in China or Japan, they'd probably call him a Zen Master. But since he's in the Old West, he's just a cowpoke, tryin' to get by the best he can, ma'am.

I think all of the above are some of the reasons westerns are so very popular in countries other than the US. Such behavior and opportunities are so different from what's expected outside of our own country, and are so longed for by so many.

Great thoughts and interesting viewpoints!