Elia Kazan Films

[JackFavell]

It's funny, because the way you describe A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is exactly how I feel about On the Waterfront. Oh, I do feel the pain of the two characters when I watch it, I just don't seek out the movie like I do with A Tree. One is a favorite, and the other, just a movie.

Robert, thanks for the Dorothy McGuire love, she's just soooo good in this film. Her harshness on first glance seems so hard to take, but as I've become a mom, I really see where it comes from. It's played perfectly, as is the entire rest of the film, there isn't a minute of the movie I don't like and I see new perspectives each time I watch, which makes it a favorite. It's so very TRUE. There is no fakery, the world is harsh, but beautiful in small ways, as seen froma child's perspective. Kazan could get more realistic performances out of his actors than anyone else I can think of. He's a giant when it comes to directing actors, and my goodness the kids here are marvelous.

I think it's fascinating how the two couples in ATGIB and OTW correlate to one another... I never thought of them together before. The men and women come from different worlds in both films, are striving against almost insurmountable odds to be together, the men each have a weak point, a shame they carry, and the women bear the brunt of the man's failures.

[sandykaypax]

Well, I guess there are more Katharine Hepburn fans here than I thought!

Wild River--what a wonderful review. I need to see that one, now. I think maybe TCM will be showing it during the 31 Days of Oscar...

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn--I love everything about that movie. All of the performances are spot on. I did see the film after reading the book, so maybe that's why it resonated with me more...the casting is just perfect. The book is one of my favorites of all time. Yes, the father is a ne'er-do-well, but he is so charming that you can see why Katie was swept off her feet by him years ago...but dreamers aren't doers, and Katie's a doer. She loves him, but she can't count on him and that's hard, so she's become hard.

Sandy K

[JackFavell]

Sandy, that's a really great description of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. It's no one's fault. Johnny and Katie are victims of Johnny's dreams, and Katie doesn't want her kids to be as well. Wholehearted belief in those dreams without action can be a curse, but without those dreams life is unbearable. It's the pull of opposites against and toward one another, as in all of Kazan's work.

I think there's a reason we have such varied feelings about Kazan's different films. I think we all have certain truths that touch us, but they may be different from person to person. Where I might respond to the truth of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, which hits home very hard for me, Alison is touched and moved deeply by On the Waterfront's truths. Another might find A Streetcar Named Desire to be extremely moving (I'll admit that I am one of those also). I am a dreamer, an artist, a fragile person, and so that's why these particular films touch me. I think the truths in On the Waterfront are about something that I can't really relate to.

[Robert Regan]

Good point Wendy about how we perceive and feel a film differently. Many of the people on Mubi are very young and still believe in the possibility of experiencing and evaluating a film objectively. This leads to "party lines" about what is good and what is not and, of course, they seem to feel obligated to "hate" a movie, director, or actor that is very popular. Not all the young folks are like this. I have "friends" in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East as well as the US who are charming, knowledgeable, and open-minded. These are the people I have individual "conversations" with, avoiding nearly all of the discussion threads. It is a pleasure to meet so many adults on SSO who have learned what they like and to tolerate the likes of others. Of course we think they're crazy when they don't like our all-time favorite, but we don't say it. Thanks to you and everyone here for being such good company.

[JackFavell]

Thanks Robert, it really is an 'oasis' here, and I think we all try to respect each other's opinions. My truths are not necessarily ChiO's truths. We've had enough of that bashing at other websites. I mean, if I start a thread called "WHY I LOVE LORD LOVE A DUCK" I don't want someone to come in and tell me how awful it is in the first post after I made it clear that I love the movie! Look at the title of my thread! Here at the oasis, we can say, "I really don't get what everyone sees in Lord Love a Duck" and not feel we are going to be pounced upon, because just yesterday, I respected you for your opinions on the greatest movie ever made, The Iron Petticoat. That being said, I don't think any of us minds a little tussle over a movie every now and then, that's what gives the spice to the relationship.

[CineMaven]

[RedRiver]

We've had enough of that bashing at other websites.

That's why we don't go there anymore!

ON THE WATERFRONT, which I like and admire without feeling close to the characters, and A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN, where I identify strongly with the children, the mother, and the Lloyd Nolan character.

That's why art is so hard to define. Why do I like this? Because...well, just because! There are movies whose greatness I recognize, whose craftsmanship I admire. And there are some that touch me. Or amuse me. They don't have distinguishable qualities the others lack. They just reach you where some films don't. Almost invariably, it's the small movies that do this. Intimate stories in confined settings. I haven't seen "Brooklyn," but I suspect it fits that description. Some movies by Robert Rossen are like this. Ralph Nelson. The best of Billy Wilder. Often, they're based on plays. No cinematic wonders. No spectacular scenery. Just good solid characters.

[JackFavell]

I do like small movies... that's a great point, red.

[charliechaplinfan]

I don't know whether I relate to the characters in On the Waterfront, perhaps I just saw it for the first time at a time when I was really open to new films and actors, it's the performances, well really it was Brando. I'd never seen anything like him on screen before but now I've seen it 6 or 7 times, it's never dimmed, the story hasn't dimmed and the characters haven't dimmed but it's a simple story, for me they're not layers there, it's a matter of what's right and wrong and there is a reason why Kazan chose to make it. It's powerful like I find Arthur Miller's work powerful. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is more complex and is a tale of a family and people who come into contact with that family. I cheer for Terry Malloy inwardly for being brave and speaking out against the gangsters but I don't equate it to what Kazan did. I understand what Katie does but I can't inwardly cheer for her, I don't know for a Kazan film the characters were very different, not as strongly marked. A Streetcar Named Desire is another favourite, how do you take one of the biggest Broadway hits, combine Vivien Leigh and Marlon Brando and come out with a movie that isn't a battle of wills or styles.

More later, I'm afraid life intervenes

[JackFavell]

I agree about Brando, there was and never will be anyone like him, he's just brilliant, living the part as it happens, and so fascinating. At least we intersect on Desire Street.

[charliechaplinfan]

Ah, I wanted to come back to this thread.

It's not the first time I've been at odds with the popular opinion on film and their stars but very often I concur with everyone but I've tried to find what it is that is often at odds and what I've graduaally come up with is the type of films that I really like (even in the second rate movies) are mostly contemprorary films, ones that reflect the time they were made, On The Waterfront, Streetcar fit in this category, as does Face In The Crowd. It's the same with all genres, in silents it's certainly true, precodes, I love noir because that's is contemprorary, the gangster genre, drama, screwball comedies. I've always been wobbly with Westerns, I'm not a big fan per se, I do like some but not as many as I've not been suited to. Musicals don't really fit into this, they are a completely different cup of tea to any other genre.

It's not an exact science though, there are period movies I do like, Gaslight, Mayerling, Anna Karenina (Vivien Leigh's version) Gone With the Wind and Errol Flynn movies and even Sea of Grass and Wild River but I'm not a great fan of costume pictures and few can carry of costume, some of my favourite leading men, Cary Grant, Fredric March and Marlon Brando are three who don't carry it off for me.

So is this why I didn't love A Tree Grows In Brooklyn as much as many here, it's probably a part of it. I didn't dislike it and the children were brilliant who stood out only Joan Blondell and Lloyd Nolan made an impression. As for On The Waterfront, I could watch it again tomorrow and enjoy it as much as I have before but the older me prefers Wild River comparing the two films makes me feel that the romance has flipped a bit, in Wild River it's Lee Remick who has the baser instinct whereas in On The Waterfront it's Brando.

The one I can't remember making much of an impression apart from Brando trying out an accent is Viva Zapata and looking at his filmography I'd love to watch America America.

[charliechaplinfan]

Wendy, I took a photo of the streetcar named Desire in New Orleans, Chris thought I was bonkers, well he'd realised that by then and just made sure I didn't get knocked down whilst doing it.

[JackFavell]

I have a copy of Viva Zapata but have never watched it. A long-gone friend over at the TCM website sent it to me and told me it was a great film, but I never got to it. It's going to be on this month on TCM, so I should probably have a look. America America is one I've watched a couple of times now, and I do like it, there are parts of it that are very good, but it's just too long for me and I get no overriding meaning from it, which I think I need for a picture to make my 'great' list. The lead actor is good, but not exceptional. The amoral-ness of the film gets to me after a while. Again, I need a deeper meaning, or an overarching theme, even if it is the LACK of meaning in life, for a picture to really stick with me.

[charliechaplinfan]

Perhaps I need to watch Viva Zapata again, my problem I think is with Brando, he's an actor who I feel over indulges himself sometimes, not very much at this point in his career but I remember feeling he had overdone this one.

Kazan's filmography isn't that long but it is memorable.