Foreign language films...

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Hollis
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Foreign language films...

Post by Hollis »

Good morning all,

I just finished watching "Divorce Italian Style" and I enjoyed it - to a degree. Maybe it's just me, but I've always had trouble truly enjoying a movie when I have to read the subtitles as opposed to being able to understand the spoken word. If the film had been dubbed in English, I get the feeling I would have enjoyed it quite a bit more than I did. Am I alone in feeling this way? Someone, anyone, please tell me I'm not, and that you can understand my position. I hate being the "odd man out." Thanks in advance and have a great weekend everyone!

As always,

Hollis
Mr. Arkadin
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Post by Mr. Arkadin »

Hollis,

There are many who feel as you do. Personally, it does not bother me to watch a subtitled film, but there are many people who do indeed have problems with it. Sometimes you can find films that have a decent dubbed performance if that helps you. Some English tracks are good/some are horrible. You really just have to check them out and see what you have.

Foreign films offer a much different viewpoint than American films and are worth the extra trouble. As I said in another thread, many foreign works actually seem more modern and fresh today than some of their American counterparts which were restricted by Code. A film like Divorce: Italian Style for example, would have never got past the American censors in 1961.

This is not to say American films are bad or lacking. Sometimes the best works come from imposed limitations (Picasso's blue period is a great example of this). American acting has always been a bit more "out front" than European or Asian performances. The Hays code enforced a subtley of handling topics and wording that diffused this style of work and created a unique melding that became what we now consider classic American film.

Both types are unique and should be enjoyed as such. Glad you saw the film and don't worry--it gets easier after awhile. 8)
jdb1

Post by jdb1 »

Hollis, I agree with Mr. A that a bit of practice with subtitles makes reading them easier as you do it more and more. And it's usually said in cinema circles that Americans prefer titles to dubbing. I don't know - I think the opinion is mixed among my moviegoing friends.

I don't generally enjoy dubbed films because the dubbing usually isn't very good. It's rare to find a film that matches the voices, the dialog and the lip movements - I find the lack of match, especially in the quality of the voice and the out of sync lips, very distracting. I'd rather hear the original actors speak and try to follow the subtitles as best I can. If you notice, the actors in so many dubbed movies speak in a curious, declamatory way that sounds very unnatural.

Also, if you have, like me, a smattering of knowledge of several foreign languages, with subtitles it's another distraction to know that what's on the title isn't exactly what they are saying. In the name of speed and lip synching, the dialog in subtitles (and in dubbing) is generally seriously truncated.

However, it would be a shame to miss fine foreign-language films, so I'm willing to struggle on with titles or with dubbing.
MikeBSG
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Post by MikeBSG »

I have some German and some Russian, and I get a kick out of it when the subtitles don't quite match what is being said. Usually this is done to get past some swearing, but sometimes it is done to substitute an American expression for a foreign one. In one Fassbinder movie, a man was declaring that he was not "under the slipper," (to use the direct translation from German to English.) The subtitle simply said "hen-pecked," which is what the German phrase means.
melwalton
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Dubbing

Post by melwalton »

You've got my vote, Hollis.. I don't mind dubbing, half the time, I don't know it's being dubbed and reading subtitles is a pain. We don't watch foreign language movies and very few silents, only Keaton, Chaplin types. I understand how foreign films would be enjoyable, if one speaks the language but I've forgotten what little French and German I picked up during the war. ...,mel
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mrsl
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Post by mrsl »

Hi Hollis:

I'm definitely with you on this one. I much prefer dubbing, but as most people know on this board, that's because I'm usually sewing or crocheting while the TV is on, so I'm not staring at the screen, and longer movement of the mouth, or sound doesn't bother me. In addition to that, unless the words for subtitles are on a black boxed background, often if the printing is in white, and against white or grey items on screen, the old eyes have a little trouble seeing the words.

Anne
Anne


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Erebus
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Post by Erebus »

I too watched "Divorce" last night and enjoyed it as a well-crafted film, but I agree, Hollis. I'm with Anne regarding the difficulty of reading against light backgrounds. But what bothers me most is how subtitles distract from taking in the larger cultural and architectural contexts of the settings, which for me is one of the greater attractions of films from cultures alien to my own experience.
Mr. Arkadin
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Post by Mr. Arkadin »

I'm not against dubbing if it looks good and is done by people who know what they're doing. As MikeBSG says, many times it's not the actual translation we hear, but an approximation of those words.

Also, there are some people that won't watch subtitles and a good dub is an easy way to get them into foreign film. The Seventh Seal (1957) for instance has a very good dub, while Cries and Whispers (1972) does not. Le Jette's (1961) dub is very accurate to the original French. Porco Rosso (1992) makes more sense to me in English anyway because it's Anime and these people don't even look Japanese:



Beauty and The Beast's power is in the original language though. Marius voice as the beast is compelling and is as Cocteau discribes: "a wounded animal in pain." While many people are purists one way or another, I just look at each film on it's own basis and watch it in whatever language works for me.
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Sue Sue Applegate
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Post by Sue Sue Applegate »

Mr. Arkadin said:
Foreign films offer a much different viewpoint than American films and are worth the extra trouble. As I said in another thread, many foreign works actually seem more modern and fresh today than some of their American counterparts which were restricted by Code. A film like Divorce: Italian Style for example, would have never got past the American censors in 1961.

I enjoy foreign films, but I agree that subtitles can be distracting. If a film is subtitled in a language that I am familiar with, I find it is sometimes more distracting to me because I end up comparing what written words I see on the screen with what spoken words I hear on the soundtrack.

But that doesn't restrict my interest in foreign film. Only my limited spare time does that.

I certainly feel that what Mr. Arkadin has said about the modernity factor in foreign films from the 50's and 60's and how censorship often limited subject matter in America is true, and I believe the "freshness" factore has also played a major part in my renewed interest in foreign film.
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Post by feaito »

Guess I can't talk very much about this topic, because all British, American, French, etc. films, which represent more than the 85% of our market and maybe more, are all equally foreign to us Chileans and we've been used to subtitles and dubbing since the moment we were born :wink:

Anyway, I must say that I prefer subtitles and in general loathe dubbing, especially the old dubbing of classic films, which usually had unbearable heavy Spanish accents, full of zzzees.
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WITH AND WITHOUT

Post by cmvgor »

The recent Louis Malle tribute on TCM included Elevator To The Gallows AKA Lift To The Scaffold AKA Ascenseur Pour l'echfeud
(1958), an old favorite of mine.

I first saw it in the early 1960s, in a Post Theater full of rooting, hooting
GIs -- dubbed. The TV airings I've seen since then have been subtitled,
and I enjoy it either way. The sometimes unflattering photography of the
young Jeanne Moreau, the use of irony in speech and action, and the use
of absolutely plausable coincidence all add up to a very delicious viewing
experience in French Noir.

For the most part, I don't seek out foreign titles unless I've run across favorable reviews or comments from sources I respect. The one exception to this generality is the Spanish films of Pedro Almodovar. In the early '90s I casually picked up a copy of Tie Me Up! Tie Me Down! on "two-for-one night at the vidio store, and I've found his films worth my time ever since.
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Sue Sue Applegate
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Post by Sue Sue Applegate »

Dear feaito,

I certainly feel the same way you do concerning dubbing and the fact that it is more distracting than subtitles. The moments when the dialogue are out of sync with the movement of the actors always makes me want to titter and chuckle. I am so glad you chimed in with your opinions because I had been wondering how you felt about it all as our "unofficial" South American expert on film, foreign or otherwise.

Dear cmvgor,
I also enjoyed Malle's Zazie and had never seen it before. Did you get a chance to see it also? It had, at times, a Keystone Cops/Mack Sennett sensibility, and then moments of a sort of Teutonic bitterness that melted into a kind of playful Peter Sellers abstraction. I like the way it turned around the negativity and manifested itslf into the playful revenge of an adolescent which illuminated how different a child's vision of this world can
be so different from an adult's.
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Bogie
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Post by Bogie »

My personal opinion?

I don't mind the subtitles TOO much. There's one reason for this and one reason alone. At least with the subs you can actually hear the actor's voices and the way they play their parts rather then hearing some guy or gal in a studio doing the same dialogue.

I'll give two examples:

I have the director's cut of Das Boot on DVD and it has a dubbed track with the original actors (I think) doing the english dubbing. The dub is pretty murky and hard to make out to me. I then switched to the original language with english subs and found the movie far more entertaining because I can actually hear and feel what the characters were going through in the movie.

I've also seen the FANTASTIC! (please look for this movie if you haven't seen it) Downfall which was about the last days of WWII and Hitler's last days in the bunker. Bruno Ganz gave a spellbinding and in my ever so humble opinion best performance as Hitler in any medium. You would've lost 90% of what made that movie so great if there was an english dub. I'm glad that the studio that released the movie didn't put an english dub on the DVD. (at least I couldn't find one)
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Post by Sue Sue Applegate »

Thanks for the information, SPTO. I also have a copy of Das Boot with subtitles that I have not yet seen, and I've never heard of Downfall, but I will look for it the next time I visit my favorite DVD place.
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Post by Bogie »

Sue Sue Applegate wrote:Thanks for the information, SPTO. I also have a copy of Das Boot with subtitles that I have not yet seen, and I've never heard of Downfall, but I will look for it the next time I visit my favorite DVD place.
You might have better luck if you look for it under the original German title

Der Untergang
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