TCM Underground: Yea or Nay? Maybe It Depends

[Mr. Arkadin]

I think it's been a bit too focused on horror and pulp. I would like to see films like:

El Topo (1970)
Carnival of Souls (1962)
Death Race 2000 (1977)
Performance (1970)
Marat Sade (1971)
The Man Who Fell to Earth (1976)
Blade Runner (1982)
Johnny Got His Gun (1970)
The Stunt Man (1980)
Casino Royale (1967)
Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (1974)
Seconds (1968)
Beyond the Valley of the Dolls (1970)
My Dinner With Andre (1981)
The Innocents (1961)
Across 110th Street (1972)
Killer of Sheep (1977)
Gates of Heaven (1978)
Maniac (1933)
Repulsion (1965)
Exctasy (1933)
The Face Behind the Mask (1941)
Un chien andalou (1929)
One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich (1970)
Last Year at Marienbad (1961)
200 Motels (1971)
The Loved One (1965)
Brother John (1970)
Eating Raoul (1982)
Animal Farm (1954)
Slaughterhouse five (1972)
Curse of the Cat People (1944)
The Face of Another (1966)
Don't Look Now (1973)
Man Bites Dog (1992)
Le Jetee (1961)
Cul De Sac (1966)
Claire's Knee (1970)
Shock Corridor (1963)
The Ruling Class (1972)
The Wall (1982)

[Dewey1960]

Lots of fantastic suggestions there, Mr. Ark!! Especially CARNIVAL OF SOULS, BRING ME THE HEAD OF ALFREDO GARCIA, SECONDS, REPULSION, SHOCK CORRIDOR, ACROSS 110th STREET, DON'T LOOK NOW and your recent personal recommendation, FACE OF ANOTHER.
Let's hope our friends at over at TCM pick up the scent...

[benwhowell]

I'm anxious to see the Todd Haynes/ Dylan movie too. (Big fan of both.) It will be interesting to see all the various actors playing Dylan. (I really enjoy the work of Christian Bale.) If anyone can pull that off, it is Haynes.
And Todd Solondz too...in "Palindromes."

[Dewey1960]

Ben - Speaking of DYLAN and Palindromes...have you seen this incredible video from Weird Al Yankovic???

[Mr. Arkadin]

Dewey, ever seen Coonskin/Streetfight (1975)? Anaimation blaxpoitation based on Song of the South. Not for children though.

[Dewey1960]

>>Dewey, ever seen Coonskin/Streetfight (1975)?

Have never seen 'em. Are they in the Ralph Bakshi vein?

[Mr. Arkadin]

It's Bakshi. While I don't really care for him much at all (did not like Fritz or Heavy Traffic) I find this interesting because of the live action/animation and Blaxpoitation themes.

[mrsl]

Hi Dewey:

I realize I was pretty harsh, but you can see from all the typos in that para alone, how angry I was - not at anyone in particular, just at the fact of the movies. I have nothing against adults seeing horror and cult movies, but I'm firmly convinced a large part of the problem with young teens, and pre-teens is the availability of these films to them. I know TV is also too violent, so movies are not the only place violence is seen. If there were steadfast rules followed by theater owners and parents who could care less what their kids watch (I'm not talking about the parents who have, and follow rules), I'm talking about the ones who are too busy or nonchallant( spell?) about their kids. Because of movies, TV and this internet, young teens are far too knowledgeable of violence.

It's true we have a larger and faster network of news today, but even 50 years ago we had news from all over the U.S. But we did not have the bombings and gunshooting from teens like we have today. They got those ideas somewhere - and where but the mediums I mentioned?

For my birthday in January, I received a paid gift card from Hollywood video, but when I went to rent a movie, 8 out of 10 shelf movies were violence and/or horror - that's a shame.

At 20 my daughter broke her engagement to her fiancee because she found out he was doing drugs, and previously she had broken up with a boyfriend because he drove to wildly. That takes guts, and I'm glad she had it. At one time all 4 of my kids tried drugs but they all out grew them. I was a single mother but somehow I managed to drive some respect for themselves and others into them. With two jobs I still managed to watch certain movies before giving the go-ahead to them. I snooped (Yes I snooped!!!) in their rooms when I put their laundry away. That's how I found cigarettes, Playboy mags, and condoms. That's what I mean by parenting. Yes, a child needs a certain amount of privacy, but only to a point.

Just the fact that my 23 year old granddaughter walked to and from school in first grade, yet I now pick up my 7 year old from first grade says something about our world.

So, all of you adults who love horror and cult have all my blessings and hopes for fun in watching them, but also, hopefully all of the people who do watch themdo so with the proper mindset, and don't decide to go out and try some of the 'lessons' they've learned.

It's hard, but I hope I've made myself clear. I have checked in on TCMU a couple of times, but saw nothing to hold me, and the promos shown seem to concentrate on the worst scenes they can find, so there is nothing there to draw me either.

Anne

[Dewey1960]

Hi Anne -
Thanks for your thoughtful post regarding yesterday's exchange. I knew something was up when I noticed such an uncommonly high number of typos in your message (not like you, at all!) Anyway, I appreciate your response, as it helps clarify many of the concerns you put forth when determining what and what not to watch. As a non-parent, I tend to have a looser set of parameters with respect to what is acceptable fare. My own personal tastes--as far as the types of films presented on TCM Underground are concerned--were formed long ago, growing up on a steady diet of horror, science fiction, mystery and the types of films that are now called "cult" pictures. Fortunately, the residual damage seems rather slight, but I fully appreciate how many of the films today, particularly gruesome horror picutres, can be emotionally disruptive to young people in ways that the films of several generations ago never dreamed of being. But I honestly don't believe that the films aired on Underground come anywhere near that level of derangement. Even the most extreme among them (Russ Meyer's films and possibly some of the "blaxploitation" films) are child's play compared to films like "Hostel" and the "Saw" series.
So, thanks again for posting; I do believe we have cleared the air on this matter! By the way, I seem to recall that you watched CURSE OF THE DEMON a few months back and found it to be somewhat enjoyable!
Take care - Dewey

[benwhowell]

Thanks for posting that great video, Dewey! I always thought Weird Al was quite clever...and omnipresent.
A couple of other movies to add to my "underground" essentials are "Door-To-Door Maniac" with Johnny Cash and "Bill And Coo" (1948)-which won an honorary Oscar...In which artistry and patience blended in a novel and entertaining use of the medium of motion pictures. As Zippy The Pinhead would say-"Yow!"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039188/

[Dewey1960]

BILL AND COO -- what a memory blast!! That film use to come on TV all the time when I was a kid and my brother and I would sit there mesmerized by it. For the uninitiated, the "cast" consists primarilly of real birds (a few other barnyard critters turn up, as I recall) playing actual characters. Bill and his girl friend Coo are lovebirds in an all-bird circus which is invaded by a villainous crow! There's never been anything like it; positively surreal! Clever narration, cool music and a "special Oscar." Catch it if you can!

[mrsl]

Dewey: (Final word on the subject)

I saw Curse of the Demon when I was 21 - had all four kids, oldest being 5 at the time. Going to see it was my moronic husbands' idea of a night out for me! I recall the beating I got for not appreciating his thoughtfulness. Anyway, it was long before I realized kids brains are spunges that retain things that adults would normally forget. Movies of the 50's and 60's were definitely much tamer than those of today, but, (that Almighty but,) as in your case lead to a lifetime of liking them, which we have both agreed had no harmful impressions on you - there is always that 1 or 2% however, who are not as stable as we would like.

My grandson, at 10, was allowed to see SAW, a major bone of contention between his parents and myself. This kid has seen them all with no basic simpler fare as the 50's and 60's, which lead by gradual stages of horror to SAW. The argument is, 'he sees it all on regular TV' but I disagree. Nothing on TV is as gruesome as that, and the fact that they do not use the parental control on the cable movies is their own stupid fault.

I practically had to sit on his lap to make him watch The Uninvited and Ghost Breakers, but while laughing, he also had a few frightened moments, At least now he sees the difference between a scary movie and a horror movie, and he now has watched a few TCMU offerings. At least I feel better knowing he has a choice and often chooses the tamer stuff like Chuckie I & II and Nightmare on Elm Street I & II. Although we are both hooked on the Final Destination movies.

Anne

[Mr. Arkadin]

With all due respect Anne, I think there is a big difference between films like the original Frankenstien or Mummy which were more of a character study of the state of mankind and fare like Halloween which is just some faceless killer that is totally detached from reality.

As I said before, my favorite types of films are ones that explore humanity. There are films of this type in all genres including horror. There is a great movie coming up in June that I think you might enjoy--The Picture of Dorian Gray (1945). This film stars Hurd Hatfield, George Sanders, and Donna Reed. It's the story of a man who makes a wish that he might never grow old and finds his wish granted--with a price. It's a wonderful picture with great performances and it explores many different themes. This is not some mindless slasher flick.

I realize that we all have different tastes and enjoy different things. I agree with some of your statements about most modern horror (junk) and that fact that children should not be watching films that are rated R when under the age of 17. I invite you to view some of the horror films I listed in the horror section when we discussed this before. I think there is a big difference in the kind of film you are percieving and what I actually enjoy.

[mrsl]

Mr. Arkadin:

I read the book and saw the movie of Dorian Gray when still a teenager, and again later as an adult, and I agree, it, and Frankenstein are both fine character studies. However, you're looking at them from an adult point of view. I don't know how old you are now, but think of the first time you saw Frankenstein as a child. There was no character study, just a scary man who went around the countryside killing people. Some pity was garnered for him when he met the little girl, and I would venture a guess, as a child, you didn't realize he had killed her also. I recall feeling sorry for him when all the townfolk came after him because I felt he didn't know what he had done. On the other hand, everyone admired Dorian but they weren't aware of what a type of living hell he existed in.

I've never read Frankenstein, and I wonder if Mary Shelley wrote it as a character study, or merely a scary book. Depending on the answer to that query, the director may have changed the whole concept and turned it into a story for all ages, knowing he could attract young and old alike.

Your list is interesting but although I should know better, and usually do, some of the names turn me off to the point that they do not incur any interest in me to see them. e.g. the name Saw defines images of severed limbs, heads, and blood - not my idea of a cozy Friday night.

When I write about horror movies, I'm talking from a parents' point of view, and what I would want my kids and grandkids to see. As I said, young minds absorb a lot more than we would like, and unfortunately there is always that 1 or 2% that thrill abnormally to visions of gore. Although it is a very small percentage - it's that particular small percentage of people who become rapists and murderers. Our prisons are filled with drug dealers and robbers. Very few are actual cold blooded killers. If drugs were legalized and education was equalized, many of our prisons would be unnessary.

When the codes were in effect, movie makers were forced to follow them, but when they were shattered, an 'anything goes' attitude was adopted. Movies must be a small part of the rise in crime after the code was eliminated, remember, I said a small part.

Anne

[Mr. Arkadin]

Mr. Arkadin:

I read the book and saw the movie of Dorian Gray when still a teenager, and again later as an adult, and I agree, it, and Frankenstein are both fine character studies. However, you're looking at them from an adult point of view. I don't know how old you are now, but think of the first time you saw Frankenstein as a child. There was no character study, just a scary man who went around the countryside killing people.

I first saw the film as a kid and what I felt was pity for the monster. Personally, I was not scared. Very few films have actually frightened me. I understand and agree about children's access to certain films, but I think you are forgetting that these films were never made originally for children.

If we were to examine violence in film and what should be shown, there would not be many films. I know you like Westerns, but my wife will rarely watch them because she does not like seeing the violence that usually comes with those films. She was raised around firearms and knows firsthand how lethal they can be. Seeing people get shot in a Western gives her bad dreams. Classic horror does not bother her though, because she knows there is no Mummy or Frankenstien monster. Watching people get killed in Gangster,Western, or War shootouts bothers her because of the reality that it could actually happen.

As an adult, I enjoy films like Unforgiven (1992), but I would not reccomend it to a minor. Quite a few kids are killed each year playing with guns and that's just the tykes. The older ones run with gangs or shoot up schools. I don't blame Westerns or Gangster films for this (I do blame Gangster Rap though).

I don't think that anyone here disagrees with you that children should be monitored as to what they listen to, watch, and especially what videogames they play (a little Grand Theft Auto anyone?). You should also monitor their friends as well because most of the time that's how they are introduced to these things.

I personally find the horror genre like any other in film: there is the good, the bad, and the disgusting. Many of your best works of horror do not contain blood and gore simply because they don't need them. Suspense and fear begin in the mind, which can think faster and conjure up a more frightening scenario than anything that could be shown on the screen. This is why many of these early works have endured and still continue to entertain long after their shock value has gone.