BOGART NOIR on TCM 8/17

[JackFavell]

JF, love your observations about Huston. Some of his later films give more emphasis to the visual, such as THE KREMLIN LETTER, UNDER THE VOLCANO, and THE DEAD. Style in THE MALTESE FALCON: If you watch the scene with Bogart, Lorre, Greenstreet, and Astor which resolves the falcon plot, followed by the scene between Bogart and Astor which resolves the murder plot, you realize it's almost all in the same apartment, mainly in one room, but Huston's mastery of camera angles and set-ups makes this work. Amazing work from a beginning director.

You have a good eye for mise en scene, kingrat. I think it's time I sat down and watched The Maltese Falcon again... There is a lot in this discussion that I never really looked at before. Huston is great at creating excitement within the strict limitations of a set.

I do see more emphasis on visuals in Huston's later work.

[Dewey1960]

Hey Kingrat!
Like so many of Nick Ray's other films, KNOCK ON ANY DOOR has quite
a bit on its mind and often goes to great pains to establish a socio-
political world view, particularly when examining the psychological
fragility of vulnerable teenagers. (Message Movies don't often sit well
with many noir purists it seems.) But John Derek, as Tony Romano in
this film, gets to utter the pessimistically chilling line "Live fast,
die young, and leave a good-looking corpse." A very fatalistic
foundation on which to build a film! Even tho that scene isn't in
the clip below, there's ample evidence that In many ways this film can
be seen as a blueprint for 1955's REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE.
[youtube][/youtube]

[Mr. Arkadin]

JF, love your observations about Huston. Some of his later films give more emphasis to the visual, such as THE KREMLIN LETTER, UNDER THE VOLCANO, and THE DEAD. Style in THE MALTESE FALCON: If you watch the scene with Bogart, Lorre, Greenstreet, and Astor which resolves the falcon plot, followed by the scene between Bogart and Astor which resolves the murder plot, you realize it's almost all in the same apartment, mainly in one room, but Huston's mastery of camera angles and set-ups makes this work. Amazing work from a beginning director.

You have a good eye for mise en scene, kingrat. I think it's time I sat down and watched The Maltese Falcon again... There is a lot in this discussion that I never really looked at before. Huston is great at creating excitement within the strict limitations of a set.

I do see more emphasis on visuals in Huston's later work.

If you remember the scene in Astor's apartment, the camera literally chases them around the couch in the center of the room.

For all the talk of talk, I will heartily agree that this is the strength of the film where words fly around almost like screwball comedy, but what so many people don't realize is how these gifted players make the dialogue believable and bring us into the story (the camerawork here as KR says,works hand in hand, and making us feel like we're in the same room with them and even gives a sense of claustrophobia). Only Bogart could deliver lines like "Sorry I got up on my hind legs, boys, but you fellas tryin' to rope me made me nervous. Miles gettin' bumped off upset me, and then you birds crackin' foxy, but it's all right now, now that I know what it's all about."

[JackFavell]

Mr. Arkadin,

I am so excited to revisit this film after so many viewings, but with an eye for the camera work. Let's see if I can distance myself enough to stay focused on that instead of getting sucked into the joy of the performances as I usually do.

[RedRiver]

it's almost all in the same apartment, mainly in one room

Less is more.

words fly around almost like screwball comedy

The similarity is almost eerie. Are these Howard Hawks characters chasing an escaped leopard? Or dangerous criminals bumping each other off? This unique quality distinguishes "Falcon" from almost every other crime film.

visual dazzle, style or decor never takes top place in a Huston film

My brother likes Huston BECAUSE he has no distinct style. He made westerns, heist films, dark comedies. There is no typical John Huston movie. It's only Walter and Phyllis and their deadly insurance scam that prevents me from calling Huston's master work the very best crime drama of all. No other really comes close.

[Rita Hayworth]

My brother likes Huston BECAUSE he has no distinct style. He made westerns, heist films, dark comedies. There is no typical John Huston movie. It's only Walter and Phyllis and their deadly insurance scam that prevents me from calling Huston's master work the very best crime drama of all. No other really comes close.

I have issues with Huston because RedRiver has written that he has no distinct style. This bothers me greatly because I expect all filmakers/directors/producers to develop a style so that we know its their film. Coming from where I see in Huston film is that you do not know what he will do with it; to me ... I don't like surprises and seems like every time I watched his films I come away either I love it or hate it. I don't care for half of his films because he didn't develop a style of his own and because of that I learned later on in life that you must take your friends and people in this forum whether a Huston's film is worth watching or not. If your friends (where you live) tells you to avoid a Huston film (they know my preferences are) 75% of the time when I do go against my friend's advice ... I ended regretting that I did watch it and my time watching it is wasted. I agreed with RedRiver assessment of Huston and that alone makes me quiver watching some of these films on 8/17/2011. I am in quandary about the whole thing gang!

I've read and re-read this thread a million times and I'm in quandary whether to watch any of these films again! I have to be very selective in this! I gave myself time to think things over and I hope that I didn't upset anyone here at all!

[Dewey1960]

Did someone say THE BIG SLEEP wasn't noir? Did I somehow wake up dreaming?
"Sometimes I wonder what strange fate brought me out of the storm to
that house that stood alone in the shadows..."
[youtube][/youtube]

[Gary J.]

Did someone say THE BIG SLEEP wasn't noir? Did I somehow wake up dreaming?
"Sometimes I wonder what strange fate brought me out of the storm to
that house that stood alone in the shadows..."

Yes Dewey! That was me. Loud and clear! Hawks did not make noir films. He made Hawks films....

[ChiO]

That's right, Dewey! And RED RIVER and RIO BRAVO aren't Westerns, and TWENTIETH CENTURY, BRINGING UP BABY, HIS GIRL FRIDAY, and BALL OF FIRE aren't comedies, screwball or otherwise.

[Dewey1960]

A very good point, ChiO! And, for that matter DETOUR is an Ulmer film, and SCARLET STREETis a Lang film, and OUT OF THE PAST
is a Tourneur film, and TOUCH OF EVILis a Welles film, and RAW DEALis a Mann film, and...

[Gary J.]

Now you know damn well that we are speaking of a director's style and not the genre they made films in.
There is a reason that Hawks' westerns do not look and play like Ford's westerns. There are familiar components
in both of their films but they are taken in different directions that makes it easy not to confuse the two directors.
(When RED RIVER was released the uninformed assumed that Ford made it because it starred Wayne and it was good)

Now it's obvious that you and I are never going to agree on what constitutes a noir film. That's becoming rather clear.
I see noir growing from a select time and place in film history while you seem to see it everywhere, in every decade, as long
as any film character ever had a dark thought. For me noir has it's own stylized look and feel to it that appealed to certain
directors (many of them who toiled in b pictures) who could take those aesthetics and run with them. And that is not Hawks.
He enjoyed making comedies about the battle of the sexes and he liked stories about manly men heading into great adventures.
He would never have the time nor inclination to tell a story in a dark, foreboding, existential universe.

It just ain't him....

[Dewey1960]

For those who think young, it's John Huston's noir comedy BEAT THE DEVIL.
Many people don't care very much for this film, which is always a good thing!
It's part of Bogey Day tomorrow!
[youtube][/youtube]

[Mr. Arkadin]

I've never felt that the genre belonged simply to American films made between 1940 to 1958 or that shadows and a fedora are essential. That would be similar to saying every horror film has to have a haunted house. While it's true many do have these features, that is not what I personally think defines them. Rather, they are outward trappings, or signposts that point to deeper internal questions such as what constitutes good and evil, fatalism vs. freewill, or moral and social corruption. While the styling may vary, these themes are usually present in one form or another. As an example, we had a noir contest here at SSO where we were each asked to list our 25 favorite films. Here were mine:

Force of Evil (1948)
Cutter's Way (1981)
Out of the Past (1947)
Act of Violence (1948)
Le Quai des brumes (Port of Shadows) (1937)
Rififi (1955)
The Killing of a Chinese Bookie (1976)
Scarlet Street (1946)
Il Bidone (The Swindle) (1955)
Try and Get Me (1950)
Brighton Rock (1947)
The Face of Another (1966)
In a Lonely Place (1950)
Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (1974)
Nightmare Alley (1947)
You Only Live Once (1937)
Kiss Me Deadly (1955)
Touch of Evil (1958)
Taxi Driver (1976)
On Dangerous Ground (1952)
High and Low (1963)
Sunset Blvd. (1950)
Decoy (1946)
Blast of Silence (1960)
Blade Runner (1982)


The simplistic approach that noir is urban, black and white, only made by Hollywood, and were only created in the forties and fifties is to deny its origins and continuing influence. I contend that these films and stories can be traced back to the silent era and are still made today. While we can argue semantics about labels, I personally would rather see people talk and discuss a film like M (1931), The Crime of Monsieur Lange (1935), Copkiller (1983), Le Jour Se Leve (1939) He Who Gets Slapped (1924), Violent City (1972), Cruising (1980), Point Blank (1967), Day of the Outlaw (1959), Underworld (1927) and other such works in depth rather than trying to categorize them. It’s much like throwing away delicious candy to discuss the wrapper instead.

P.S. Purists shouldn't bother turning on the TV Thursday. It's just that Jean Gabin fellow and we all know those French people never made any noirs.

[ChiO]

Time to resurrect this thread?

http://silverscreenoasis.com/oasis3/vie ... =18&t=2316