Crime on film and the Criminals that inspired the writing.

[Western Guy]

Thank you, Alison, for starting this thread (partly based, as you say, on my book "Dustbowl Desperados"). Glad to see you've elicited a favorable response.

I for one have long been fascinated with gangsters and the underworld- from a young age, which often left my parents and relatives wondering how I developed such an interest. Spent a lifetime researching the topic and was fortunate to have had an uncle and two aunts who lived in Chicago during the Roaring 20s, who shared with me their own stories of the era. Spent my own time in Chicago during the early 70s and can't explain the thrill I got visiting some of the historic landmarks that still survived (the Biograph Theater) and seeing spots where famous underworld incidents occurred (such as the location where once stood the garage at 2122 North Clark Street).

Love the history, love the movies. As to some of those biopics already mentioned, I'd have to say I'm still hoping for the "real deal". I suppose my favorite and the one that (kinda) sticks closest to the facts both in historical significance and character is Warren Oates' "Dillinger". The timeline gets a little wacky, with Baby Face Nelson and Homer Van Meter getting killed before Dillinger, among other discrepancies, but I think Oates pretty much captures the essence of Dillinger, based on what people have said about the outlaw. Female bank employees called him a gentleman. Heck, even some agents of the FBI admitted to having a grudging respect for Dillinger (as did Bill Roemer for his target, Chicago mob boss Tony Accardo).

Lawrence Tierney was too brutal - psychotic, in fact; Mark Harmon . . . well, 'nuff said. Johnny Depp was okay but personally I could not warm to "Public Enemies". Actually found it boring and that final scene of the dying Dillinger whispering in Melvin Purvis's ear . . . well . . . right. First of all, it is still my belief that it was not John Dillinger killed that night. Gotten a lot of flack for that but I stand by it.

As for other 30s bandit movies: "Baby Face Nelson" with Mickey Rooney is quite good. Again, strays somewhat from the facts, especially the ending, but it certainly is entertaining. And Leo Gordon makes a pretty good Dillinger. "The Bonnie Parker Story" is interesting as there is no Clyde Barrow mentioned in the movie! "Machine Gun Kelly" and "Pretty Boy Floyd" (with John Erickson) are virtually total fiction. Actually, the movies about The Mob often had more fact surrounding them: "The Rise and Fall of Legs Diamond", "Al Capone", "Murder, Inc." "Portrait of a Mobster" (the Dutch Schultz story) again, unnecessarily, veers off too much into the world of fiction, though Vic Morrow is good as Schultz.

Find it interesting how screenwriters and producers have to embellish the facts when the histories themselves should more than suffice.

Bonnie & Clyde, albeit fictionalized, were the first real-life criminals to be recreated onscreen: in "Persons in Hiding" (1939), portrayed by J. Carrol Naish and Patricia Morison. Ma Barker was re-christened Ma Webster, played by Blanche Yurka, in "Queen of the Mob", released the following year. Dillinger remained a hands-off subject until 1945, although Warner Brothers in the late 30s announced a film to be called "John Dillinger - Outlaw", which was to star Cagney as Melvin Purvis and either Bogart or George Raft as Public Enemy Number 1. The film, of course, was never made and I've often wondered if the topic was still too hot and maybe Mr. Hoover had put some pressure on J.L. to forego the project.

My problem with the Beatty/Dunaway version of "Bonnie and Clyde" is that they were too romanticized. The real outlaw pair were nothing like the couple portrayed onscreen. They truly were dirt road bandits whose biggest haul netted them a mere $3600. They shared a strange strange sexual relationship (can't get into that here), had no compunction about killing whoever got in their way: "the laws" or even bystanders, and were not the Robin Hood figures that Pretty Boy Floyd was remembered as. They stole from their own people as freely as they robbed others. Dillinger called them: "A couple of punks who give bank robbing a bad name." There was a TV-movie called "The True Story of Bonnie and Clyde" (the title of which was a misnomer) and apparently a new theatrical feature is in the works, that was to star Hillary Duff and feature Faye Dunaway. All I can say is that I really don't hold out much hope for the true story to ever be told cinematically. Actually the real-life Bonnie and Clyde were too depressing and perverse to make for an entertaining movie.

[RedRiver]

I like Bonnie's poem too, Chaplin Fan. In a movie known for intense, chaotic action, that gentle moment is very effective.

[charliechaplinfan]

Stone, I finished your book in 2 days, a few of the names were known to me but only Bonnie and Clyde and Dillinger did I know a few facts about. The one that caught my attention the most was Francis 'Two Gun' Crowley, who was in Sing Sing and was under the wardenship of Lawes, who himself wrote books and screen plays. I found his story particularly incredible, I think because of his youth and bravado and partly because I hadn't heard of him before. I think you did a fine job of outlining each outlaw's story within a chapter, it must be so hard to be concise with so much information, every name needs to be mentioned and dates and times, most of the men could warrant their own books, which they probably do have. For a beginner like me, I found it fascinating, a different look into an era and subject that I find fascinating.

To modern day audiences Bonnie and Clyde are probably the most famous of the outlaws, I wonder how much of that is down to the film Bonnie and Clyde? I did know their story contained more depravity and more innocent blood shed than the film touched on. I think I said that compared to other outlaws there takings were paltry in comparison to the risks they were taking, I understand that some of the other outlaws might have been drawn to bank robbing by poverty, or by a need to redress the unfairness of their life, perhaps there was a little of that with Bonnie and Clyde but I guess there was also a murderous instinct there. WD is a shady character, he's called Moss in the film, he went to the police and told about the life he had with Bonnie and Clyde, including being tied up amongst other things. I wonder why the film changed his name? Another thing I found gruesome was that Bonnie and Clyde's families had picked out their coffins before they died. I know too that it was the death car that I saw in a mall outside Vegas, I was skeptical at the time but took a couple of pictures and had a look around. It certainly was shot to pieces.

It also begs the question as to how many little banks there were in Middle America? And how criminals like Dillinger managed to get such big takes when Bonnie and Clyde went away with peanuts by comparison. Part of it must have been planning, could it also in part being the towns and areas targetted?

A film about Dillinger with Cagney and Raft, that would have been a money maker.

[Western Guy]

I'm both flattered and honored that you enjoyed my book, Alison. Thanks so much for the kind words. I very much enjoyed writing it.

I agree with you about "Two Gun" Crowley possibly being the most intriguing of the criminals covered in the book. He certainly is the least known and probably would have remained little more than a footnote in crime histories if not for his famous gun battle with New York cops. Interesting, though, how he became the model for some famous movie gangsters. Consider the similarities between Crowley and James Cagney in "Angels With Dirty Faces". Cagney plays "Two Gun" Rocky Sullivan; he has a prolonged shootout with the cops, ending in his capture; he's sentenced to die in the electric chair at Sing Sing; and maintains a tough bravado while on death row. Crowley's story in a nutshell. Crowley's final days in Sing Sing were more or less covered in "20,000 Years in Sing Sing" and, more specifically "Castle on the Hudson". An argument might even be made for "White Heat". Cody was mother-fixated and so to a point was Crowley. Crowley's final words were: "Give my love to my mother." (actually, his stepmother)

I'm really surprised, though, that a true film about the life and exploits of "Two Gun" Crowley has never been made. After all, if lesser lights "Machine Gun" Kelly and Roger Touhy could have biopics made . . .

[RedRiver]

Bonnie and Clyde are probably the most famous of the outlaws, I wonder how much of that is down to the film

A lot, I suspect. My mom said people barely knew Davy Crockett until Disney got hold of him!

[ChiO]

My guess is that Bonnie and Clyde are not well-known at all, and that the only people who have heard of them are people who have seen the movie.

On the other hand, everyone has heard of Al Capone and John Dillinger. Or that may just be Chicago's perverse civic pride in its gangsters talkin'.

[charliechaplinfan]

I found all the stories rivetting just Crowley's jolted me, so much a Cagney character, not only in Angels Have Dirty Faces but also in The Public Enemy, Crowley presumably wouldn't have known of the success of Little Caesar, his bravado filled outlaw, fueled not by films, perhaps by magazines but I wonder if any other juvenile cop hater was fuelled in part by the success of the onscreen gangster, despite the fact that the gangster always got his comeuppance in the last reel. Crowley seemed unique, his very youth and 'accomplishments' achieved very quickly and at a very young age. What went wrong and was he ever salvagable? If that question could be answered I guess we'd solve a lot of problems in this world.

For a Brit, Bonnie and Clyde are the better known and I can hold me hand up and say it's because of the film but I had heard of the other names, Dillinger being the most well known to me.

I hope Dillinger got away, I hope I understood you correctly Stone, we don't know that Dillinger ever personally killed anyone and if that is the case, I'm all for him getting away. What an unusual case if he did, how many criminals ever manage to voluntarily stop? It's possible he had made enough money to settle down but he was so well known and he didn't possess any finger prints anymore, he'd have to stay squeaky clean for that not to be discovered. We'll never know but was it possible? Having seen the autospy pics it doesn't look the published pictures of Dillinger and knowing the other discrepancies, it's all very strange and it wouldn't be the first cover up in the FBI would it?

[Western Guy]

I know what you mean, Alison. There's a truly pathetic aspect to Crowley's story that is missing from the biographies of the other criminals. When you think about it, Crowley's fascination with gangster films (cheering the crook, jeering the cop) would most likely have occurred during the silent film era, since he was executed in 1931. He probably saw such films as "Lights of New York", "Alibi", "Underworld" and possibly "Doorway to Hell" and "Little Caesar", but certainly never saw "The Public Enemy", and Cagney doubtfully would have made much impact on him.

There really is no proof that Dillinger ever personally killed anyone. His "Terror Gang", on the other hand - and later association with Baby Face Nelson - proved another case. From all I researched, Dillinger would shoot only to wound and, unless absolutely necessary, chided gang members when a killing on their part occurred. I'm not saying John was a boy scout but he tried to avoid violence at all costs. As I mention in my book, the one killing for which Dillinger could even remotely be held responsible is the shooting of a police officer who, wounded by another gangster, dropped into Dillinger's line of fire - and even that cannot be proven conclusively. Again, that is another reason why I believe Dillinger never expired in the Biograph ambush. Unless he went temporarily insane, it was not in his nature to attempt what he had to realize was a suicidal move. Yes, he shot his way out of Little Bohemia, but he was with his gang and the odds were more evenly matched. On occasions where the cops moved in and Dillinger was alone, he wisely would surrender peaceably. Now Baby Face Nelson, of course, was a totally different story -- though here was a public enemy enigma. Alvin Karpis said that "beyond business", Nelson (as apparently was Pretty Boy Floyd) was the most devoted family man one could hope to find. The only criminals of the era that Karpis spoke badly of were Bonnie and Clyde. From the moment he met them he knew they were headed for big trouble. He also had no use for "Machine Gun" Kelly, who was a loudmouth and a braggart who other prisoners in Alcatraz took great pains to avoid.

And Karpis, till the day he died, maintained that Kate "Ma" Barker was nothing more than a poor hillbilly woman who had the misfortune to bad-breed sons.

[charliechaplinfan]

Presumably had Dillinger ever been captured alive he would have faced the death penalty? It's so intriguing, if he dissappeared, where do you think he'd have gone, a city or the country? Stayed in America or gone abroad? I very much liked the fact he wouldn't take the people's money.

I don't think there is anything nice to say about Bonnie and Clyde, perhaps 2 things, Bonnie's poetry was quite good and they took memorable photos.

[Western Guy]

There's little question Dillinger would have received the death penalty - but less for his criminal activities than to serve as an example to all lawbreakers of the era. John Dillinger was the "big fish to be caught and fried".

[charliechaplinfan]

He's what they meant by public enemy number 1.

J Edgar Hoover, he was awful with the successful FBI agents. How was he allowed to hold that position for so many years? Did he just know too much about everybody? Was their no top brass who could take him down who didn't have skeletons in the closet. Did he possess too many compromising national secrets? Or was he essential to the FBI and the running of America?

[JackFavell]

I think he indeed had amassed so much information that no one dared cross him.

[charliechaplinfan]

Only history then will sort him out, I guess things will be emerging about him for years to come.

[Western Guy]

Indeed, he had proven himself a formidable figure. It wasn't until the Kennedy brothers came into power that J. Edgar could start to see his power waning.

[charliechaplinfan]

Yet they must have been two of the politicians that he could hold the most over, starting with Joe Kennedy there were skeletons. Hoover could probably fill his own thread quite well, I didn't see the recent film, it got panned here. The Johnny Depp/John Dillinger film is on here tonight, it's doubtful I'll get to watch it, it clashes with something Chris wants to watch. Besides, Depp, good actor doesn't feel like good casting to me, I know that shouldn't be a problem if the actor is a good one but from the picture used to advertise it he looks too sharp and modern but what do I know.