Silent Laughs: Chaplin, Keaton or Lloyd?

Isn't Romantic Comedy redundant?
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bobhopefan1940
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Post by bobhopefan1940 »

movieman1957 wrote:In "One Week" be sure to watch carefully as he does a gag that will become very famous later when it is done on a bigger scale. The way they use that house is amazing. You are in for a good time.
Ok, I'm just going to drop a quick note here, because I'm hi-jacking this thread something aweful :oops: But loved Go West (Oh my! The ending scene was hilarious!) and will watch One Week tonight. I also caught The Playhouse and The Scarecrow (table scene: fantastic. Wasn't that Arbuckle's dog?) I guess I should go talk in my Keaton thread... *slips away sheepishly* I'm done now. :wink:
"How strange when an illusion dies. It's as though you've lost a child." --Judy Garland
"To help a friend in need is easy, but to give him your time is not always opportune." --Charlie Chaplin
"Dumb show is best for screen people, if they must appear in public." --Buster Keaton
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Post by pktrekgirl »

jondaris wrote:
bobhopefan1940 wrote:I adored the scene in Sherlock, Jr. where he finds the dollar in the trash, then gives it away to a young lady who claims she has lost it. I enjoy the honesty, a trait that Chaplin's character (amusingly so) never attained. It is really humorous when the older lady comes along, claiming the same loss with tears in her eyes. Thus, the tender hearted guy gives away his own dollar... With tears in his eyes.
I use that scene to show why I prefer Keaton to Lloyd, comparing it to the scene in Safefy Last where Harold pays the office boy a dollar, then steals it back. It's not just that Keaton is funny, even though he is. His essential morality and decency raises his films above those of Lloyd, without descending into Chaplinesque pathos.

Keaton is by far the best film comedian of all time in my book.
This is an interesting comment. Because one of the reasons I love Chaplin so much is what I refer to as his pragmatic impishness.

The Tramp understands that life is not fair. Clearly, he has experienced the short end of the stick enough times to have internalized that. But some of the stuff he does, to me, kinda illustrates his determination to not give in to the notion of becoming a pathetic victim figure...but a guy who, in his own small way, works pragmatically to exact revenge on 'the system' (stickin' it to 'the man', if you will)...and get at least a *little* of what he wants out of life.

I admire the Tramp. He never says die. He never gives up. He always finds a way of making the system work for him...albeit not necessarily in the way it was intended.

In truth...I wish I was more like him.

Instead, I am a Buster Keaton. Too damn honest for my own good.

When things turn out good for Buster Keaton, it is because he gets good luck in the end...usually after a long stream of BAD luck or even outright victimization (which usually makes up the main body of pretty much all of his films, before the happy ending). But I don't think life is like that. Rarely do good guys who are victimized end up finishing well, like Buster so often does...almost in spite of himself. In real life, nice guys finish last...and if there is something out there you really want, you have to be able to work the system in one way or the other in order to get it. It won't come to you by accident...or by being nice and decent.

Maybe it's the cynic in me after having gone through what I've gone through in life. But I think if you want anything in life, you have to take it. And that is what the Tramp does.

And I admire that - wish I was more like that.

Instead, I wait around like Buster...doing my best. Only the happy ending never seems to come.

I think Buster got all the happy endings and there aren't any left for the rest of us Busters in the world. :lol:
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Post by Mr. Arkadin »

To answer the question of the thread (or not answer it!) I love all three and each of them created great films of differing styles so it's a bit hard to choose.
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

I would place Harold Lloyd below Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton. Sorry if I have offended anybody :) I think Harold Lloyd a very fine comedian but he didn't have the urge for perfection that Chaplin and Keaton did.

As for Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton, my preference is for Charlie but Buster runs such a close second. I find Charlie's comedy a little easier to absorb, his films from the Mutual period onwards are so well crafted and with the exception of a couple of shorts are all excellent. Buster's comedy is more challenging, I always wonder if I have missed something and when I watch him back again I find that I did miss something. Buster did hit his stride very quickly, a few shorts made with Roscoe Arbuckle and then he was on his own and never hit a bum note until MGM became involved.

Apart from personal preference I don't really think it is fair to compare the two comedians, there styles are very different and although they and Lloyd borrowed from one another, they always put there own twist on to the gag. How wonderful it would have been to work in the creative atomosphere of the silent comedies.
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Post by movieman1957 »

You are quite right. They are of different styles. I really like Keaton. I like Chaplin but not as much. I personally don't find him that sympathetic a character. He is a brilliant talent; writing, directing, scoring and a multitude of on-camera gifts even with those I've never been able to warm up to him like I have Buster.

We've had discussions about Lloyd as well. While I enjoy many of his films there are a few times his character is a bit slick. I don't think it's any problem to group these three together. Given the chance I'll spend an afternoon watching any of them.

I did see an interesting comment on a documentary about Groucho Marx. Groucho mentioned how Chaplin told him he was jealous of him because he could talk. Groucho seemed quite moved that Chaplin would envy him anything. I guess he took care of that with "The Great Dictator."
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Chaplin knew that once his Little Fellow talked it would narrow his range and alienate some of his audience. He was right, he couldn't continue producing comedies with the Little Fellow and I think this had more to do with his voice than his age. He did make three wonderful films away from the Tramp character. Monsieur Verdoux, Limelight and A Woman of Paris.

Although I can't rank Harold Lloyd as highly as Chaplin and Keaton, it is right to include him as one of three great comedians of the silent age. In his day he was far more popular than Keaton and he still has a big fan base throughout the world. My knowledge of silent comedy viewing extends to Arbuckle, Charley Chase and Harry Langdon. I think he was a way ahead of these in originality, development and filming methods.

I haven't mentioned Laurel and Hardy who I grew up watching avidly on television. Some would say they are the best of all. Perhaps that is a different discussion :)
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Post by movieman1957 »

charliechaplinfan wrote:
I haven't mentioned Laurel and Hardy who I grew up watching avidly on television. Some would say they are the best of all. Perhaps that is a different discussion :)
It is and it is one several of us would be happy to have. There is a thread set up in "The People of Film" forum for L&H. I am a long time L&H fan. I'm currently going (courtesy of Netflix) through their collection of silent films. Many of these I haven't seen so it's been an education and a good deal of fun.
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

I'm in the process of renting out Laurel and Hardy's Laughing Twenties to watch with my daughter. I'll update members of the Laurel and Hardy thread. Somehow I think she'll be blown away. She's 5 and a big Buster and Charlie fan already :D
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Post by Gagman 66 »

charliechaplinfan,

:o Hi, and welcome of the forum! Just needed to say that while I have great affection for these two profound artists, I would hope that you would be willing to give the films of Harold Lloyd as much consideration? In my opinion Lloyd's 11 Silent features of the 20's are frequently funnier, and probably more consistent in overall quality from one film to the next than either Charlie's or Buster's are. And I say this as a big Chaplin and Keaton fan!

:? The fact is Lloyd was the most popular and successfully Silent film comedian of the 1920's, yet his remarkable films have been sadly neglected, up and till very recently. I have been a fan of all Three of these giant's for some 30 years, since I was 8 years old back in the Mid-1970's, but Harold Lloyd quite honestly is my favorite! To the novice, and I have seen this play out time and time again, Lloyd's features are the very best introduction to the Silent's.

:D Harold Lloyd was very much a perfectionist in the same mold as Keaton and Chaplin. He controlled and supervised all aspects of production, including any self appointed directors. He spent many hours in the edit, room, previewed his films over, and over, until He achieved his goal before releasing them. As Jobyna Ralston noted in 1926, as an extra in Lloyd's 1921 comedy A SAILOR MADE MAN, Lloyd spent over 5 hours on one sequence that lasted only a few seconds on screen! Shooting it every conceivable way! Than spent many more hours before selected the clip He liked best in the screening room. To quote Jobyna "If Genius is really the infinite Capacity for taking great pains, than Harold Lloyd amply rates the title of Genius"!

:wink: Please give Harold's films which have just been released in lovingly restored editions in the U. K. very recently a look! I promise you that you will not be disappointed in any way! Lloyd's features such as GRANDMA'S BOY (1922), WHY WORRY? (1923), GIRL SHY (1924), THE FRESHMAN (1925), and SPEEDY (19280, are among the finest comedies, and most charming films every produced. And all 11 of Lloyd's Silent feature films are now on DVD both in the States and in the Britain, so it is the perfect time to discover these timeless treasures!
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Thankyou Gagman :D

:D Harold Lloyd's films have only just been released in the UK and thankfully I acquired them for Christmas along with a book by Jeffrey Vance. So far I have watched in order of preference Safety Last, Girl Shy and The Kid Brother I thought these very good. Ranking just below is For Heaven's Sake and Hot Water (I thought this film lost it a little in the final reel) and I didn't take to Grandma's Boy and The Freshman. Sometimes I take Harold a bit difficult to take, like his character in The Freshman but the reverse is that I love the sweetness in his comedies with Jobyna Ralston. The tree shot in The Kid Brother is one of my favorites.

:D I do like Harold just not as much as Chaplin and Keaton. I said I just find Chaplin so easy to get and so joyful to watch from start to finish. I'm just in awe of Buster's technical capabilities and construction of storylines. As for stunts I take my hat's off to them all but mostly Buster and Harold.

:D I've always wondered if the kind of comedy you like is influenced by where you are from or how you grew up. Do I find Chaplin the funnier and easier because I'm English?

:D I'm just about to put Why Worry I'll come back to the thread when I've watched it.
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Well now I've watched Why Worry and I did enjoy it. I sometimes think that some of the gags in Harolds films could be tightened up a little but that's only nitpicking. It was quite ingenious of Harold to use John Aasen a giant and use him to great effect. (I thought Eric Campbell was tall in the Mutual comedies) The best gags were him firing the cannon and of course extracting the teeth. How strong must he have been to carry Harold on the balcony.

I think as someone has said, I'd love to spend an afternoon watching any of these three's comedies. All three were different but borrowed from one another and improved gags, kind if like throwing down the gaunlet to one another. I've also heard it said that in the small Hollywood community of the time, they all knew one another and were quite friendly, although Chaplin isn't known to bestow honours lightly, he did praise Grandma's Boy quite highly.

Can I talk about their talkies in this thread? I'll keep it brief I don't want to analyse what happened when they entered talking pictures but I just want to say how both Harold and Buster didn't sound to me how I imagined them. Charlie's voice didn't match the Tramp at all and he knew that, but it's perfect for Limelight and Monsieur Verdoux and it is how I would have imagined him to sound. I just wonder if anyone else has any comment to make about how they spoke.
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Post by Dawtrina »

And after talking about differences between English and American humour in a different thread, I should add that I'm a huge fan of American slapstick. Silent humour really transcended any difference, and the greats were Americans (or like Stan Laurel, appeared to be). Who else was there in silent comedy, really?

However I think that asking which of these three was greatest really depends on your meaning.

Chaplin was there first. Without him, what would comedy be? Watch pre-1914 comedy and then buy one of those cheap Chaplin box sets and work through his films in order. I really haven't found a lot to write home about before 1914 and Chaplin's early films really suck. But watch how he just takes over comedy and redefines the whole thing, getting things wrong, getting things right, changing the whole rulebook. Keaton and Lloyd didn't even show up until 1917 and by then Chaplin was God. And I agree with the comment (on the last page so I can't search back to see who said it) that The Kid is as good as it gets.

Keaton's my personal favourite of the bunch, I think. Watch the early Keatons when he's working for Fatty Arbuckle and he's as dynamic from moment one as people like James Cagney and Edward G Robinson were later. As soon as they appear on the screen, nobody else matters. However he had a lot of trouble being consistent. I'm not as big a fan of many of his features. While he was awesome, there's just too much inconsistency in things like Steamboat Bill Jr, Our Hospitality or The Navigator to really call them truly great. Truly great scenes, truly great gags but not truly great films. Yet The Scarecrow, One Week and Sherlock Jr are pure genius, undistilled perfection.

Harold Lloyd is the opposite of Keaton in many ways. His shorts are often pretty poor, especially early on, but he gets better and better until by the time his features come along, he's unstoppable. Safety Last, The Freshman, The Kid Brother, all wonderful. His sound films are better than Keaton's, but I'm discovering that both of them were still powerful presences on the screen even when surrounded by substandard material.

I see that people are mentioning other names here too and there are some common ones: Laurel and Hardy, Fatty Arbuckle, Charley Chase. The one that really intrigues me though is Larry Semon. I haven't seen much of his work and it doesn't seem to be too easy to find, but what I've found has been fascinating. The Sawmill is a real peach of a short and while flawed, both Kid Speed and Wizard of Oz have much of interest. I just wish I could find more.
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

It's so frustrating to be able to read about these comedians and not be able to find any of their work. Thankfully Charley Chase's comedies have been released by Kino, Langdon's getting more released, I have watched The Arbuckle and Keaton films too.

I recently attended an event run by Paul Merton called silent comedians. He has published a book to go with a TV series he did over here covering the work of the big 4 (the 3 here plus Laurel and Hardy). He showed Safety Last and excerpts from the more popular comedians and he showed a clip with Snub Pollard, he was wonderful. My only viewing of him.
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Post by stuart.uk »

I know most think Chaplin's tramp made his last appearence in Modern Times. 'The Tramp Can't Talk, Once He Does He's Dead,' said Robert Downey jnr in his potrayal of the great man.

however, i was wondering if a point can be made for suggesting the Jewish barber in The great Dictator was still The Tramp character. if you believe that then you'll believe The Tramp went out talking and as Downey jnr said in th film 'At Least He'll Go Out Saying Something I Believe In'
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Hmm, it's a difficult one. The given view is that the tramp made his last appearance walking off hand in hand with Paulette Goddard in Modern Times. A fitting end to the tramp, this time he's not alone and they'll get by together.

Anyone who has seen The Great Dictator's opening scenes on the battlefields of World War One should be in no doubt that this is indeed the Tramp character reincarnated. Only now he has a name. He's not as friendless as the little tramp or pathetic but trouble dogs his path just the same.

I like to think that the little fellow who shuffled onto the screen at about the same time WW1 started uttered his last words as a plea to all mankind for peace at the beginning of WW2. I hope Chaplin thought so too.

It is though open to the viewers own interpretation.
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