John Ford

[JackFavell]

You are a sweetheart to say so, Maven. I wish I could grasp the feelings a Ford movie evokes in me better.

Why do you think the color of movies changed so much by the fifties? Was it that it became old hat? That they didn't take as much care on each project? Or was it the process itself that changed? Did it become cost prohibitive to do it in that certain way? Does anyone know?

I've just looked at Wiki and it says that three strip Technicolor was on the way out by 1950 or so, but I'm not sure why. It looks like Kodak film created a single strip or something, and replaced the 3 strip process?

[CineMaven]

THREE GODFATHERS

You are a sweetheart to say so, Maven. I wish I could grasp the feelings a Ford movie evokes in me better.

BETTER?

( * ) Though it isn't as complex as some of his greatest works, I just don't care. There is room in any man's oeuvre for a sweet story filmed without embarrassment.

( * ) The way The Abilene Kid (Harry Carey, Jr.) walks the line between dark and light in the shade of the waylaid wagon always takes my breath away as a metaphor. And then there's the way the wind blows the sand in different patterns or the way the earth cracks and crumbles away on their journey. The earth itself creates such eerie, evocative feelings, giving the film some resonance that it might not have without those long takes of desert wasteland.

( * ) But the bulk of the film is the journey, inward and outward, of the three bad men, and how responsibility changes them. When all is taken from them, they step up, and find they can throw away everything they thought they wanted for a higher cause.

( * ) The Kid sincerely thanks him for taking him along and letting him join up with the gang. He held the horses at their robbery of Welcome's bank and has been shot. We see that Wayne hears the guileless, genuine and earnest thank you differently - every word changed into a self reproach for the turn of events. He turns his back to us. We see his world-weary shoulders sag with the responsibility of it. He walks behind the wagon to be alone, helpless to stop the Kid's encroaching death.

( * ) As good as Wayne is, what makes me dissolve into tears every time are the incredibly poignant performances of Pedro Armendariz as Pete... He can see the future, what the outcome will be, even when no one else can.

( * ) But truly, the film's sweet emotional center belongs to Carey Jr.... he was gifted this enormous part without really knowing he wanted it. However he got the role, he's just marvelous in it. He's simple. How do you get to the core like this when you are so young, at least to film? There isn't anything phony or coy about the way he says his lines. It could have been a disaster with the wrong young man in the role but it isn't. He doesn't play cute, he just says his lines in a natural way and we believe him. He's sincere, and deeply affecting. His death scene is impeccable, it's not often that any actor can pull off such a difficult and moving moment, let alone a rookie actor. I want to help The Kid catch his breath, when he falls to the ground. He can't remember the end of the Lord's Prayer in his fever, so he says the standard childhood bedtime prayer, "God bless Mother and ... Father (did I hear his voice catch on Father, or am I just adding what I know of Carey Sr.'s death around this time to the meaning in the film?) and.... make me a good boy." And his voice does break on the word 'good'... and we weep for the little boy gone just a little bit bad, then it's all over.

( 1. ) Your words elicited an emotional response from me...on a crowded NYC train after midnight...filled with young folks going to and from the City...on a Friday nite...that I didn't initially have when I decided to read your post.

( 2. ) You make me want to see a movie I've never really wanted to see.

( 3. ) You are Cyrano.

[JackFavell]

You flatter me.

[CineMaven]

Uhmmmmm...without the nose.

Listen, I went to see "WAGON MASTER" merely to hang out with you guys...to meet you in person, put faces to names, have my curiosity satisfied. The movie came last. Well, I got all I wanted out of that meet and greet and meet, but I also got something ( unexpected ) from Ford ( I know I know... all of you ALREADY know this; believe me, I know when I'm out of my league. ) He took the simple story of a Wagon train rolling across the country...where nothing really happens, but everything happens. The journey, the journey, the journey!

HEY, TCM!!! You might think of holding a JOHN FORD film festival...here in the U.S.; sponsored by TCM and doin' it up in the way only TCM does it up. Ford's films can be shown in all their big screen glory...and in the complex simplicity of Ford's storytelling.

P.S.S. If this has been done allllready by TCM, forgive me folks for my oversight.

( Psst! TCM - I know a coupla ladies on this board, who must be on your planning and speaking committee )

[JackFavell]

That's a great idea, Maven! I'd certainly be there. I'm still a Ford junkie. His movies move me like no others. Except for maybe Mary of Scotland.

[rohanaka]

For me, though, it's right up there among Ford's best movies. Though it isn't as complex as some of his greatest works, I just don't care. There is room in any man's oeuvre for a sweet story filmed without embarrassment. It always touches me deeply, no matter when I see it, or how many times. This kind of story has put me off before, but this one plays so unmawkishly that it succeeds.

More "Godfather" spoilage:

Ah little darlin'.. you have written so beautifully about one of my all time favorite Fordies. I love this film.. always have. And yet although I agree it may be not be considered as high on the list of Ford's greater works.. and might be thought of as one of his "simpler" stories, at least on the surface, I think it is more complex than it may seem at first. Because you are right, the way it is told is very sweetly, despite the hardness that runs all the way through it.

What COULD be more sweet than three desperado's completely altering their course and stepping in to help a weaker, innocent victim of circumstance. (hmm.. sounds familiar. 3 Bad Men is not unlike 3 Godfathers in this regard, I guess)

But oh me.. what in the world could ever be sweet about a baby, tiny, helpless and alone.. his mother dying as he is born. And his only hope are three men on the wrong side of the law being chased (wanted dead or alive..preferred dead) by sherrif and his posse. OH.. and to top it all off, did I mention they are in the middle of the desert with LITTLE to no water and NO way out but to go back the way they came?

There are moments of sweetness to be sure.. the axel grease rubdown on the sweet baby bottom.. the re-stating of the baby's name over and over again (Little Robert... Robert William.. Robert William PEDRO) and even the lighter conversations at the end with Perly and his wife fixing breakfast for the Duke as he is about to head off for jail. And many other moments that I find quite endearing.

But OH the emotions and the overwhelming sense of despair that plays outtoo. Events that lead one man to die in agony from his wounds.. and a second to kill himself after being wounded and realizing he was physically beyond hope.. and events that lead a third to put himself in a situation where he will nearly die of thirst and heat exposure.. all to honor a promise to a dying woman to protect her tiny baby.

And to top it all off.. you have the spirtual side of things making it all the more complex Three men.. criminals all.. with nothing good about them, and of no redeeming value in the worlds eyes whatever. Although two did at least show they knew some basic concept of God and his place in their life. It wasever so poignant to watch the first two returning to the faith they had walked away from( even if only at the end of their lives) and thereby helping to lead the THIRD man toward the faith he never had. I DO love a good repentance story after all. And this one does NOT disappoint.

Again.. all because of their promise and the greater purpose they found in caring for the innocent life that had been placed in their hands. Fascinating.. and in no way "simple".

Now that is some first rate story telling.

Now I will say that I have seen an ealier version of this same story (with Walter Brennan) that does play out a lot differently (for at least the "Robert Mamaduke Hightower" character) and I liked it very much. But I think I do still prefer this Fordie version most.. if only because of the NEED to be relieved after all that heaviness (wrapped up in the seemingly lighter package of a story) It was GOOD to end with a smile.. after all that long drawn out walk through the wilderness.

A complex story indeed.. Yet.. you are right in that the greater beauty is the simple way it was told.. and put together..both in the images.. and in the way each character was portrayed. Not a heavy handed telling (though a truly very heavy story)

OH that John Ford.. did he ever know how to spin a good yarn, or what??

(Oh.. and PS: thanks so very much for highlighting Carey's singing and the way he prays at the end. Next to my sweet Mildred.. his death is one the most poignant and heartbreaking moments of the whole story.)

Doggone.. now I have to go dig out my copy of this movie and watch it all again. (better go stock up on the tissue first.. though, ha. You've got me all wooshy eyed here just thinking of it again)

[JackFavell]

You and I are on the same page here, Ro!

I definitely like the bleakness, juxtaposed with the softer parts of the story. It certainly wouldn't work as well if everything was sugar coated, or you knew that everyone was going to come out of it alright. I get a lump in my throat, watching, because there is an awful lot of suspense built up, and by introducing the baby, it makes us want them to get through all the more. You can't have a little baby die out there, it was bad enough that the mother did. But the more people you add to the story, the more likely one of them won't make it out alive.

Despair is a good word... it is a drama at heart. The despair of those men's souls, of being on the outside of things. It's no simple thing to be an outlaw in Ford's world. Ford's heroes and villains are much more complex, they may be in an old fashioned world, but they have complex emotions. What I've always liked about Ford's heroes is their alienation, to use a modern term. Some of them can cope with it and some can't.

[MissGoddess]

I like that Ford wasn't afraid to make a religious parable out of western, with no hedging or trying to disguise it as anything else. So often he hides his ideas in plain sight, like stories that seem to be about wagon trains, Irish rebellion or revenge turn out to be about spiritual journeys of the soul and then there are his religious movies that turn out to be about the human heart and need for believing you can overcome the wrong you did.

And Wendy you know I agree with T about how you write. I'd rather read your words about movies than anyone in print. In fact, after your initial post I wanted to send it to Harry himself only I don't think the email I have is active anymore. He'd be so touched by what you wrote.

[JackFavell]

Aww, thank you, MissG! That means a lot. I hope I don't get too full of myself.

I tried to write Dobe once, but his email at the website was overflowing and I couldn't get it to go through. I went back for at least a year but wasn't ever able to post it.

As you say, his movies are what they are with no punches pulled, but I think I like Ford best because he also spins the regular old ideas into something unrecognized. He goes places that are unexpected. His thoughts wander to certain internal aspects of the story that you don't always think about, even though they are right out there for viewing.

A religious movie might have plenty of irrreligious moments or bleakness. A tale of homespun goodness might have a lynching in it or a hidden secret that holds a town hostage. The world is never far from his characters, and his movies are more debates on this than treatises. His war movie has almost no battles in it, and deals with boredom and failure, and his story of a man battling to get his legs back is about how his real handicap is his inability to relate to his family. In The Lost Patrol, his army is battling an unseen enemy, so really they are battling themselves! But all this is all couched in the fact that he films in the most straightforward way possible. Somehow, because of this, his movies just make me think more than any other directors.

[MissGoddess]

A religious movie might have plenty of irrreligious moments or bleakness. A tale of homespun goodness might have a lynching in it or a hidden secret that holds a town hostage. The world is never far from his characters, and his movies are more debates on this than treatises. His war movie has almost no battles in it, and deals with boredom and failure, and his story of a man battling to get his legs back is about how his real handicap is his inability to relate to his family. In The Lost Patrol, his army is battling an unseen enemy, so really they are battling themselves! But all this is all couched in the fact that he films in the most straightforward way possible. Somehow, because of this, his movies just make me think more than any other directors.


all i can say is "Me, too!". that was just terrific. "debates more than treatises". you say it so well. i shied away from his movies for so long because they seemed obvious and simplistic. what a dope i was!

[CineMaven]

And to top it all off.. you have the spirtual side of things making it all the more complex Three men.. criminals all.. with nothing good about them, and of no redeeming value in the worlds eyes whatever. Although two did at least show they knew some basic concept of God and his place in their life. It wasever so poignant to watch the first two returning to the faith they had walked away from( even if only at the end of their lives) and thereby helping to lead the THIRD man toward the faith he never had. I DO love a good repentance story after all. And this one does NOT disappoint.

(( BOING!!! )) I think you hit the nail on the head for me Ro. You've given me the key to unlock Ford, even though I know Ford has many doors. He does this topsy-turvy-in-out thing ( I think ) where he makes the bad guy good. ( Ladies don't hate my simplistic watering down of the Master - I'm less than a neophyte ) The bad guy slowly becomes a good man...slowly... even unbeknownst to himself. ( What Friday nite alcohol-infused stream of consciousness leads me to Boetticher?? ) Maybe I'm afraid of Ford 'cuz I don't want him sneakin' up on me, watching his films over and over again b'ecuz I was too dumb to pick up on things. Hitch is easier...I can understand him most times on the first pass. And then go back for seconds and thirds with a different approach. With Ford, as you guys have said, "he hides in plain sight" and I don't want to admit I'm such a cine-dunce. I'll tell ya this Ro, I wish I could tell a story like him. Maybe he has the thematic acumen and my Hitchie has the visual and story-telling gene. Oh, believe me, I know ( especially looking at Paula's screen caps ) that Ford also knows how to paint a picksher.

...I'd rather read your words about movies than anyone in print. In fact, after your initial post I wanted to send it to Harry himself only I don't think the email I have is active anymore. He'd be so touched by what you wrote.

Aww, thank you, MissG! That means a lot. I hope I don't get too full of myself. I tried to write Dobe once, but his email at the website was overflowing and I couldn't get it to go through. I went back for at least a year but wasn't ever able to post it.

Well girls...WHAT ARE YOU WAITIN' FOR? Don't leave it up to TCM to do the tribute. Get your calendars out, your bank accounts straight, your babysitters in place ( for husbands, children and kitties ) your bags packed and make a pilgrimage to Harry Carey, Jr's house to tell him how much you've appreciated him in films. Swing south to grab Paula, and west to grab Kathy. If you let me tag along to film the event, I promise to be seen and not heard: I'll be quiet, ask no questions, peel your grapes, not get in the way...and shoot wonderful footage you can treasure forever.

But...I still don't do windows.

[movieman1957]

All of you could find depth in a soap commercial. You're all a treat to read.

[RedRiver]

"Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, IVORY SOAP will be there."

[mongoII]

Other than his classics ("The Grapes of Wrath", "How Green Was My Valley", "The Searchers" etc.) I very much like the lesser mentioned titles of "The Informer", "The Prisoner of Shark Island", "The Hurricane", "Drums Along the Mohawk", "My Darling Clementine", and "The Long Gray Line".
The man was a genius.

[movieman1957]

Wendy wrote:

But the bulk of the film is the journey, inward and outward, of the three bad men, and how responsibility changes them. When all is taken from them, they step up, and find they can throw away everything they thought they wanted for a higher cause.

I watched it last night. What struck me is that it is a film of survival and sacrifice. A more unlikely group of men you are not likely to come across but they they get along well and are a good natured group. The chat with Pearly at the start shows they have a nice sense of humor and, The Kid, being extremely polite. This only hints at his character for later.

Wayne may not know it but he is already playing caretaker or father to the Carey. He gives him the easy job, offers to let him out and once in the desert hoarding the water for him. (Pedro soon follows that lead.)

When Robert (Wayne) comes to tell the others the story of the baby coming Pedro's demeanor changes. He stands straighter and has his hand over his heart. He may protest but he knows he is going to be responsible. He enters the "sanctuary" to deliver the baby. After the birth they all go in deliberately removing their guns as a sign of high respect. And then as Mildred dies she has bestowed on the baby their names. Strikingly, to me, she also grants the child Robert's last name. Not hers or her husband's but gives the child so completely that Hightower now goes with it.

While they are learning what to do with the baby they are all quite charming, dedicated and gentle. It is easy to forget they robbed a bank. Now it is all about a different survival as the baby must be saved.

Wendy, you mentioned the "Laredo" lullaby. It's interesting to me that after the first few lines he sings he forgets a few only to come back that he sings "I'm a poor cowboy and I know I've done wrong." He will make amends.

But they are not all agreed. Even in the argument they yell, threaten and even pull a gun on each other. When the baby cries Pedro pulls a rattle to calm the baby. Ford gives us a shot of the rattle and the gun reminding us that these men are in both worlds.

But here is where The Kid takes over. He is determined to see the child survive. He falls back on his upbringing once he reads The Bible and with a child's faith takes what he reads as his command. He soon realizes his fate and refuses water but leads them through the desert. Then as he lay dying he asks for the Bible passage that talks of green places. He then tries the Lord's prayer but can't remember it and switches to the child's prayer and prayers for help to be a good boy. Robert shields him with his hat. And he dies and he has come from the shadow into the "light." He is redeemed. Pedro is redeemed as his last prayer brings him to a point where he can sacrifice himself for the sake of the child.

Robert goes on. And come the day when he finally "gets religion." And he arrives safely in New Jerusalem. Saved. Even Sweet is "saved" from killing Wayne for his mistaken notion of murdering Mildred. Good humor returns as all is more or less forgiven as the town concentrates on the child and Robert is now a hero. He'll be back. He is sent off with fondness and tribute. Give him a year and all will be well.