John Ford

Discussion of the actors, directors and film-makers who 'made it all happen'
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JackFavell
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Re: John Ford

Post by JackFavell »

Maven,

it's not simplistic watering down, it's a key you need to get into Ford, that's all. There are many of Ford's films I can't even now understand, and feel like I'm on the outside looking in. I am pretty sure you liked Stagecoach, The Searchers and Wagon Master, right? Maybe because there were hidden things there that you saw, that spoke to you. Ford does this crazy trick of turning it all upside down, and even though many of them have cussing and fighting, and the sweet putting of women on a motherly pedestal, there is also a lot of grit involved, and his stories are not what you think they will be. The women are not all one thing or another, and neither are the men. That's been my biggest problem, I think by the description that a Ford movie will be a simplistic army story, when Ford is really pondering about how a man can live day to day doing the same unimportant job, how it eats at him. It may be that his surroundings are typically Fordian, with a comic touch, but there are some heavy-duty ideas floating along. Maybe with your noir background, you can get into seeing Ford's films in a darker way.

Mongo,

I love all those picks of yours! In fact, you named four of my favorites -

My Darling Clementine - there was a time when I thought this might be the best movie ever made, and I'll probably think so again next time I see it.

Drums Along the Mohawk - this one is growing on me by leaps and bounds. It's really about marriage, and growing up. Plus it has that Technicolor!

The Prisoner of Shark Island - one of my faves as a kid, as an adventure story. Thanks to MissG and FrankGrimes, I watched it again a couple years ago, and it stands up even better than I could have thought. It's really an amazing picture, with a standout performance by Ernest Whitman as Buck.

The Informer - This one is sooo moving. Vic MacLaglen and Heather Angel break my heart.

Oh Chris... Chris...

choked up....


That was perfect! You've really made me think deeper here. One of the pleasures of this version is the differences between the three men. As you say, they are an unlikely bunch to throw in together, but it turns out they are each there for a reason. Through the course of the film, each has a very different 'calling', as if God had reserved a special job for each. Where one might fail, another steps up and continues, like the standard bearer in a battle. The three men working in tandem to make a future that most likely won't include them is the most beautiful thing to me about the whole film.

I love what you said about Pedro, standing with his hand over his heart as if he were smote. He KNOWS his duty is to deliver the baby, as if the knowledge were in him all along. He recognizes that fate and goes to meet it gallantly. It is his moment to shine, taking that responsibility solely on himself. It is something neither Hightower nor the Kid has in him to do. And there is a pride in working to produce something alive and good. It's infectious, and the boys soon all take that same pride in little Robert...William...Pedro. Each has a hand in his 'upbringing'.

It's as if they know they can't live forever, but a little piece of them will live in the baby, and the story of how he came through the desert. It's how every parent feels.

The Kid has the gift of foresight... he can see what the others can't. He leads the way, spiritually. Since he is the closest to the babe in age, it's especially poignant. Did he have this foresight before he was shot? I don't think so. I think he has the mark of death on him, which gives him heavenly powers, he's an angel, waiting on earth a little longer than he might have had it not been for this special dispensation.... to remain as long as possible to guide his 'fallen' brethren.

And Hightower? He would be the last to see a heavenly cause behind his actions. He would scoff and feel all the more troubled because he has no gift to bring. But his is the gift of stubbornness. :D He is just plain stronger, he will fight all the way to New Jerusalem. He will get that baby through by sheer orneriness, railing at God all the way. This is a genius way to present the story, to me, and I defy you not to sympathize with Wayne at some point in the movie. That's what we are, all of us. Failed sinners, no matter how we try. Stubborn, muleheaded, and blind. But in the end, maybe we can be redeemed by one small act of kindness - A promise not forgotten.

Let the rattle prevail over the gun!
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movieman1957
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Re: John Ford

Post by movieman1957 »

Thanks Wendy. At one point after The Kid reads the Bible he stops and looks upward. The light accentuating his blue eyes and I thought this is his angelic transformation. He almost looks like a religious painting of the subject looking heavenward. He has received his calling.
Chris

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
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rohanaka
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Re: John Ford

Post by rohanaka »

OH my goodness me, Mr. Movieman.. you have busted me out bawlin' over some of the things you've expressed here, sir. I love how you have shown each man in his role for the birth/protection and even future care of the baby. This story is one of those "greatness thrust upon them" moments for all three men. It just takes different forms (and yet is all wrapped up in the same tiny package.. the baby). And gradually, one by one, they each rise to the occassion.

And you are so right about how Pedro approaches the mother.. with such reverence. It is a high calling he has just been given and he completely honors his duty with the respect it deserves. And could it have been more heartwrenching than to watch poor Harry Carey Jr lie there dying..and revert back to that childhood prayer.. "Make me a good boy".. gasp.. what a moment. It brings tears just to think of it.


Jackie, I like how you said that we can all relate to the feelings the Duke has as he is wandering through the desert.. yes.. Railing at God is the right way to say it. (like when he finds the Bible passage about the donkey, etc) He is tired.. he is frustrated, he's afraid.. and he feels alone. We all get that way sometimes and without getting too "theological" I will just add that sometimes that is when God has a way using those experiences to make a heart more ready to receive him. That is how it worked in this story, anyway.. and it was a very moving moment that took most of the entire tale for it to play out.

Nobody does lost and wandering and bereft of hope.. and yet STILL somehow moving forward quite the way the Duke did. It was a great piece of acting to see him almost "drunken" as he staggered along out of his mind trying to find a destination he didn't really know he was aiming for. Sure.. he knew he needed to get to New Jerusualem for the baby's sake.. but really.. that was not the journey he was REALLY on. It was a total and complete change of heart that was his final destination. Saving the baby was just the road he had to take to get there..

PS:Miss Maven.. I liked your comments about:
He does this topsy-turvy-in-out thing ( I think ) where he makes the bad guy good. ( Ladies don't hate my simplistic watering down of the Master - I'm less than a neophyte ) The bad guy slowly becomes a good man...slowly... even unbeknownst to himself.

I agree.. I like how many of the characters in a Ford story will often start out with a less than "good" purpose.. but somewhere along the way.. their plans (and purposes) may change.. and sometimes an unplanned circumstance (call it fate.. or the hand of God.. or both) will be presented to change the seemingly "bad guy" into a good guy. Ah.. repentance.. its a good thing.

PS: Mr. Mongo:
I like your list of "lesser known" favorites. The ones from your list that I would say are my most fave (among the lesser known) would be The Informer and The Hurricane. But in truth.. I really have a hard time choosing. Other lesser knowns that I would also add to a fave list would be The Lost Patrol, 3 Bad Men, and Four Sons. They are all equally good stories.. each having their own value separately. It is hard to choose between them.
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Re: John Ford

Post by MissGoddess »

Goodness, such wonderful stuff written. A lovely discussion by all.

You all mention the bad guys in ford, how they often are redeemed or end up being more human by the end of the films. This prompts me to think how remarkable that he also makes us see as real the archtypes that society typically despises or overlooks. They find graceful moments of humanity in his movies. Graceful and extremely subtle. He doesn't hit you over the head and preach that you must love the leper in your midst. He sometimes holds up a mirror, though, to our own cruelty toward them (I'm thinking of "Look" in the The Searchers). But it's usually done so quickly, without any calling attention to itself. It's tightly woven into the tapestry, that makes it more effective in my opinion. More an inseparable, consistent ingredient in the work or a part of the artist's fingerprint.

So much of his greatest gift as a filmmaker is making these "cast offs" become three dimensional and loveable, while not glossing over that they are often derelicts, drunks, whores, foreigners, black, native americans, elderly, disabled, Irish, garrulous quacks, Southern civil war veterans, homeless, itinerant troubadours, old maids, drifters "touched" in the head, clownish oafs (and did I mention drunks) or any others not welcome into the "respectable" quarters. Without them, his movies would be just like Shinbone in the opening of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: clean swept of anything resembling a living, loud, shoving world.

Can you imagine Shakespeare without his clowns, rogues and sharp-tongued wenches? :D Awfully dreary.
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pvitari
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Re: John Ford

Post by pvitari »

At one point after The Kid reads the Bible he stops and looks upward. The light accentuating his blue eyes and I thought this is his angelic transformation. He almost looks like a religious painting of the subject looking heavenward. He has received his calling.
Image


Movieman, is this the moment you described? I posted a bunch of Dobe-centric 3 Godfathers pictures over in the Westerns section. The Kid looks upwards in that manner several times in 3 Godfathers. It is a very striking look -- the first time I saw it I instantly thought of any number of pictures of Jesus looking heavenward -- and obviously an entirely deliberate iconography chosen by Ford, who surely directed Harry Carey Jr. on precisely what to do at those moments..
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movieman1957
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Re: John Ford

Post by movieman1957 »

That is exactly the moment. Thanks for bringing it out.

Ro:

Beautifully written responses to all. (Thanks for mine.) I especially like the way you point out how the journey is Wayne's journey. The baby is the means to it. If I thought of it at all it was more a by product of the trip rather than the other way around.
Chris

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
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MissGoddess
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Re: John Ford

Post by MissGoddess »

Some of Ford's westerns are going to be screened at MoMa in the coming weeks as part of the Auteurist History of Film when it focus on the genre, coinciding with the publication of a new book. First up will be his debut full length feature that he directed with Harry, Straight Shooting, which I've never seen in a theater. And am I disappointed that these screenings are all during weekday afternoons. :( I don't have much vacation time left, either, so I may no get to see any of them but hopefully if anyone is in the NYC area and wants to see them, this is their chance.

More information:

http://www.moma.org/visit/calendar/films/1309/
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RedRiver
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Re: John Ford

Post by RedRiver »

Some of Ford's westerns are going to be screened at MoMa

Is that your mom's house?
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MissGoddess
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Re: John Ford

Post by MissGoddess »

RedRiver wrote:Some of Ford's westerns are going to be screened at MoMa

Is that your mom's house?
ha!! :D
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Re: John Ford

Post by Sue Sue Applegate »

I've only enough time today to read the last three pagesof this popular thread, but I have thoroughly enjoyed all the comments!

Pvitari, thank you for capturing that moment that movieman described so well!
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MissGoddess
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Re: John Ford

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For those who are interested, someone has posted Ford's "Wagon Train" episode, The Colter Craven Story, which features a shadowy appearance by John Wayne:

[youtube][/youtube]
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MissGoddess
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Re: John Ford

Post by MissGoddess »

Lovely tribute to cinematographer Joseph H. August and his work on They Were Expendable
(it made me cry, I must confess!)


[youtube][/youtube]
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JackFavell
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Re: John Ford

Post by JackFavell »

That was really beautiful, MissG! I choked up myself.

The thing that's weird is, you don't ever think of war movies as 'beautiful', and I'll admit, I never really noticed any but the most obviously pretty scenes in TWE, like the scene where it begins to rain on Rusty. Put all these clips together and you suddenly realize how powerful the cinematography IS in the movie. I'd like to know how Ford and August managed to give such weight and meaning to shots of boats and planes (Hitch said that boats are the hardest to photograph as they are always moving away, and don't come back easily for another take). Ford certainly did a spectacular job of it, his boats almost have personalities, like characters in the story and are lovingly photographed.

The shot that really got me choked up was the one of the plane flying into the sunset, the sun just on the edge of the horizon. It felt so lonely, flying away like that, so slow. That's a shot that can only be done on the first take,the sun was just dipped under the skyline.
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Re: John Ford

Post by MissGoddess »

the music is perfect. i wonder what lindsay anderson would have thought of the video, he loved that movie.

i know what you mean about the boats...i always thought the shots of them plowing through the water were very stirring.
"There's only one thing that can kill the movies, and that's education."
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JackFavell
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Re: John Ford

Post by JackFavell »

I think they are stirring too, and I am not usually interested in them and especially not in war films. I think the only other person to really get the feel of boats on film is Victor Fleming in Captains Courageous. Some of those shots are just incredible.

It's an interesting use of dark in TWE, of not being able to see. I noticed it more in the video. It's such a contrast to where they are, this sunny island. But the island always looks humid and damp and uncomfortable. Fog or rain or smoke or night or someone's shadow obscures things. Their daily work obscures the bigger picture, the war effort seems at a standstill for them, but something is happening not so far off. All we see at any given time is the end of a burning cigarette, or the light in someone's eyes, not their full face. I never thought of it as a metaphor for the plot before. Their job is everything invisible, the part that isn't seen in the dark, they want to be the bright end of the cigarette.
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