Olivia and Joan......

[Vecchiolarry]

Alison and Everyone,

This is a topic about "the feud" between sisters, Olivia De Havilland and Joan Fontaine...

Feel free to pitch in with what you know or have heard about these two grand old movie queens!!!

Both are in their 90's now and apparently the feud continues after 60 years.
Olivia lives in Paris and Joan in Carmel (Big Sur country).

I don't know either but this is what I've heard and read:-
They were always competitors even as children and were egged on by their mother.
Olivia as the oldest preferred Joan to always demur to her and once broke Joan arm or collar bone when children.
Joan was sickly and Olivia contemtuous of her.

Olivia went into the theater and movies in the early 30's and Joan followed. Olivia insisted Joan not use the De Havilland name and Joan started out with Burfield and then Fontaine, her step-father's name.

Joan lived with Olivia for awhile but was evicted when she wore a dress Olivia had just bought to a tea party.

They both competed for Howard Hughes (but then who didn't!!???)

Joan married Brian Aherne, while Olivia waited for James Stewart to propose to her. Olivia figured she, as the elder, should marry first - shades of "The Taming of the Shrew".....

Joan and Olivia competed for the same Oscar in 1942 and Joan won! Olivia was not a happy camper.

When Olivia married author Marcus Goodrich, as his 3rd or 4th wife, Joan made a catty remark about him having only 1 successful book and 3 failed marriages and Olivia shunned her everafter.

When Olivia finally won her first Oscar, Joan attempted to congratulate her, but Olivia shooed her away and it was caught on camera.

Joan's children do not get on with her and favour Olivia, which is a big soar point between them all.

Ann Rutherford married William Dozier, one of Joan's ex-husbands, and is a good friend of Olivia's (Gone with the Wind) and Joan has been known to be very nasty to Ann.
This was told to me by Mr. Dozier in 1961 when he was my seat companion on a plane trip frm LA to NYC. Joan's movie "Journey to the Bottom of the Sea" was playing and that's how we began talking about her. Dozier hadn't a good word for her and said she was "prickly"....

When the mother died either Joan didn't show up because she was feuding with Mama (Olivia's version) or Olivia hurriedly buried Mama and didn't invite Joan (Joan's version)....
Whichever is true, they haven't spoken or seen each other again. And, that must have been 30 years ago.

That's about all I can think of regarding this feud; except to say that I have heard that they do talk now and get along but don't think it's any of the public's business to know their private lives - - which is true!!

Larry

[Moraldo Rubini]

With regard to Oscar night at the Shrine Auditorium on March 13, 1947, this, from The Academy Awards (The Complete Unofficial History) by Gail Kinn and Jim Piazza (Black Dog and Leventhal Publishers, Inc., rev.ed. 2004):

...Joan Crawford, a past master at contracting "Oscar flu", declared she couldn't possibly attend. Olivia de Havilland, who had read the polls and suspected this was her big night, wouldn't have missed it for the world. She worked the bleacher fans into a frenzy with her splashy entrance in a hand-painted gown. Once inside, she was a bit more subdued after learning that her sister, Joan Fontaine, would be Crawford's replacement as the Best Actor presenter. It was Fontaine who had spoiled de Havilland's shot at the Oscar in 1941, and the wound had never healed. It would be reopened before the night was over.
...
[After a big night for The Best Years of Our Lives], if there had been any statuettes left over, they would probably have gone to the battling sisters for their fiery clash backstage. When Fontaine reached out to congratulate de Havilland for her win, she was soundly rebuffed. A lucky photographer caught them in the act, and the picture made almost every front page the next morning. The simmering siblings took precedence over Oscar. The expressionless gold statuette couldn't hope to compete with the glamour of red-hot personalities for the public's fascination.

I would imagine the press' penchant for stoking the fire would have further embarrassed the sisters and only made it worse. I hope much of this has been overblown by the public, as it seems sad to carry such sibling animosity over so many years.


I assume they're discussing Errol Flynn here:

[feaito]

Larry thanks for creating this thread. I am a fan of both Olivia and Joan and I have always thought that this feud is a terribly sad affair, especially since they haven't other siblings, as far as I know.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi Fernando,

A scandal sheet in the USA featured a story about 5 years ago that Joan had made overtures to heal this situation but that Olivia would hear nothing of it.
Joan then did a complete reversal and announced she would never reconcile with her sister again.
This story could all be a fantasy, of course, since it was "The Globe" that printed it.
No, there were no other siblings for Joan & Olivia - they're stuck with each other!!

I want to wish you and your family a very Happy New Year, Fernando...
You have always been one of the true friends on this & TCM boards; always classy and intelligent replies and a great fan of good classic films...

Larry

[feaito]

Thanks for your kind words Larry, I wish the same to you. Having here you at SSO with us is such a treat. You are a treasure trove of knowledge and first-hand experiences and accounts, you ever so generously have been sharing with us all these years, at TCM and now at SSO.

This rivalry between the De Havilland sisters is really so sad. I myself have two brothers and two sisters and in my 41 years of life we've passed through many things together as siblings and as a family, and I cannot stop thinking that most of the times these jealousies and rivalries between brothers have much to do with the way certain parents have favoured one son or sister above other, or even due to grandparents' favour of one particular grandchild. Human nature is so very complex.

I feel that Olivia and Joan must be good people, but jealousy, envy and hatred can do much harm in a person's life.

BTW, last night I remembered you since for dinner we toasted with Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon-Carmenère (Aliwen-Undurraga) and it was delicious. Later to celebrate the New Year we had Grand Brut Champaigne Valdivieso.

[charliechaplinfan]

Thanks for starting this thread Vecchiolarry. I agree it's such a shame, I agree that jealousies are often started in childhood. Perhaps both of them have been guilty of 'bad' behaviour, sometimes it's difficult to come back from that.

I too think this is a brilliant place to post and feel very lucky to have found this oasis.

[Garbomaniac]

Funny thing is, I like them both equally. They both had great careers, and won an Oscar (or two). Both are talented, popular, and lovely. It is funny they couldn’t adjust to having all of that equally without one upping each other. And, you’d think after 50, they would have calmed down, reflected, and joined hands. I think Olivia had a stronger body of work. She was a star by 1935 with A Midsummer Night’s Dream and Captain Blood whereas Joan wasn’t a star until 1939 with The Women and Rebecca in 1940, although she had been in pictures since 1935, as well, according to IMDb. I guess that is why Olivia was so jealous. She had been a major star longer than Joan, yet Joan won her Oscar first! But, silly Olivia won two Oscars after that and had five nominations to Joan’s three. Oh well, if she could have only foreseen the future!

My favorite films of Olivia:
The Heiress
Raffles
The Strawberry Blonde
Everything with Errol Flynn

My favorite films of Joan:
Rebecca
Suspicion
Ivy
The Emperor Waltz

[Garbomaniac]

After discussing Errol, they look like they are having a good time here!

I believe that was Margaret Lindsay in the first photo. That is John Payne for sure, but I don't know who curly top could be.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi James,

Thanks for the photos - everybody looks great and seem to be getting along quite nicely.....
I do seem to recall that Olivia and John Payne did date but when, I don't know....

A little risque tidbit:
They could be discussing Gary Cooper in the first picture as I've heard some things about his enhancement!!
Clara Bow once remarked, "Gary's hung like a horse and can go all night!"
And, from some of the pictures I've seen here and on TCM, John Payne looks like he's doing alright in the horse department too!!!

Larry
I'm bad....

[Garbomaniac]

Ha! Well, you can't help but notice it! Anyway, John Payne is one of my all time favorite actors. He was one of the few male stars 20th Century Fox had to play opposite Betty and Alice. And, he could sing! I know Jack doesn't like John Payne, and I suppose I can see why. But, besides Tyrone, Don Ameche, and Clifton Webb, who else did they have? Oh yeah, Dana. You know as I've gotten older I have had to like more stars. You just can't go on liking the same old ones or you'll go stale. For most of my life I hated Joan Crawford, but now I LOVE her! And, even though I listed the guys in 25 Least Favorites, I have come to appreciate them for their contributions, too.

[Moraldo Rubini]

Ha! Well, you can't help but notice it! Anyway, John Payne is one of my all time favorite actors. He was one of the few male stars 20th Century Fox had to play opposite Betty and Alice. And, he could sing! I know Jack doesn't like John Payne, and I suppose I can see why. But, besides Tyrone, Don Ameche, and Clifton Webb, who else did they have? Oh yeah, Dana.

I don't really dislike John Payne (or George Brent). They just seemed kind of nebbish is all. A little dull. No oomph. I would not seek a "John Payne picture". I liked him in lMiracle on 34th Street. Was never impressed with him as a singer. So I'd say hello to him on the subway; but wouldn't invited him to dine.

=)

[P.S. I was always under the assumption that it wasn't the actresses who would have seen Mr. Payne in his skivvies anyway...]

[Vecchiolarry]

Thanks James,

Yes, that's one of the pictures I've seen recently on TCM or maybe here.

I also liked John Payne in the movies, especially in a good movie like "The Razor's Edge".
Sonja Henie was a good friend to him and I think had designs on him, but he ended up marrying Gloria De Haven.....

Larry

[Garbomaniac]

Oh, I understand completely, Jack. He is "just" a guy. I don't know whether you ever saw Stardust with Linda Darnell (as a child! ). They both play aspiring movie stars who win a trip to Hollywood. They are both supposed to be your average Joe, but even then you could see Linda was no average Joe, but John really seemed just like a guy off the street who happened to hit it big. No comparison to Olivier, Barrymore, or even Grant! Just a guy.

[Garbomaniac]

Larry, he married Gloria de Haven? Well, I never tire of finding out little things like that. I bet they drank every night and danced around singing to each other. Now, that's a nice couple. I always liked Gloria de Haven, too. Even though she too was pretty ordinary compared to the greats. But, I tell you I am running out of people to like. I have hit just about everyone in Hollwood from the golden era by my age. I have really started to appeciate the second stringers and not so noticable.

Anyway, back to Joan and Olivia. Do you know what studio Joan worked for? Was she at Warner's with Olivia. I don't think so, but I can't pin her down to any one studio.

[Moraldo Rubini]

Anyway, back to Joan and Olivia. Do you know what studio Joan worked for? Was she at Warner's with Olivia? I don't think so, but I can't pin her down to any one studio.

She actually tested with MGM in the mid-thirties, but it was RKO who first signed her to a contract. Someone from the studio had caught her performance in the play Call it a Day (Olivia played the role in a movie version -- more competition?). She did a few A pictures and a bunch of Bs there, then RKO loaned her out to Republic to play against Richard Dix and then dropped her.

Once dropped, she tested for Scarlett O'Hara (just like every other gal in Hollywood). From this test, Cukor put her in The Women. Supposedly, she had given up on her career and was about to marry Brian Aherne when she sat next to David Selznick at a dinner party. She was suggesting Margaret Sullavan star in his Rebecca; instead, he asked her to test, and she got it. Selznick put her under contract.

Selznick never had enough work to keep his "stable" busy, and he made a good sum by loaning them out. She grew tired of this and returned to RKO in 1946, then signed a 4-picture deal with Universal in 1947. In 1950 she signed a 3-picture deal with Paramount. Beginning to get the idea why you can't pin her down to one studio? She bounced around a bit, from studio to studio; but also from movies to stage (she took over for Deborah Kerr in Tea and Sympathy on Broadway).