MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Discussion of the actors, directors and film-makers who 'made it all happen'
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Intrepid37
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Intrepid37 »

Bronxgirl48 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:52 pm The 1962 MOTB was on the TCM schedule last week so I decided to dive right in but as soon as Marlon opened his mouth, I just could not continue.
I like Brando in that. His slightly foppish playboy take on Christian is different to be sure, but I like different.
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Andree
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Andree »

Dargo wrote: March 31st, 2023, 11:48 pm

Enjoyed reading your take on this film, Andree. And yes, your disgust with it is now duly noted and a feeling that is perfectly understandable considering that the subject of this film never states or issues any apologies but only regrets for his leading role in one of America's biggest foreign policy blunders nor for all the lives throughout the world that were so unnecessarily lost due to his poor judgment and advice.

However, I must say as I finished reading your take on this film, I began to think of the analogy you drew with your clever "extended Ford advert" comment, and then thinking that this might be more than a little misplaced, and I'll tell you why. It's because I don't ever recall seeing any Ford sponsored commericals in which it's shown a Ford Pinto exploding after being rear-ended. You remember, such as those film clips of that particular model Ford that were made public a few years after many people had already lost their lives while driving this Ford produced vehicle on the roads of this country.

And so in other words and what I'm suggesting here is that while you apparently believe documentarian Errol Morris "sold out" by even presenting McNamara a venue to express himself and his rationalizations, couldn't you at least also admit that by presenting his subject warts and all, Morris' film at least deserves some credit for that and to say nothing of its value as being a cautionary tale for future generations?

(...well, I think so anyway, and have thought so since the day I watched this film some years ago now)
I suppose we expect most documentaries to take on or critically examine their subjects, though that's not always the case.
I just thought that Morris would have provided more pushback to McNamara than he does in the film. He does ask him some
questions, but most of them seemed pretty softball to me. One of the best things about this movie was the archival footage,
which takes one back to the time period.

The comment about this film being like an extended Ford commercial was mostly light-heartened and of course Ford would
never make a commercial about the disastrous Pinto. McNamara did claim, about Ford cars in general, that he was trying to
make them safer, using the egg crate analogy. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. I did get a kick out of his mention
of the Ford Falcon as an example of a compact car to challenge other compacts. My grandfather had a Falcon. I guess it was
a servable vehicle, but not one a teen would want to be seen driving around in the neighborhood. :smiley_nah:

I don't know if Morris presented Mac warts and all. He allows him to come off as fairly reasonable and somewhat likeable, so I
don't know if people not familiar with the subject would see this as a cautionary tale. Of course McNamara was just one
part of the whole Vietnam story. I would advise people to read more about McNamara and Vietnam than just rely on this particular
film. I also got a laugh out of the subtitle of the film about McNamara's 11 rules, which reminds me of another SOD, Donald
Rumsfeld, who was famous for his rules and the known unknowns, unknown unknowns etc. How come these dudes with all these
rules always manage to screw things up?

Apparently, Big Mac's 11 rules didn't include one about minimizing civilian casualties.:

In 1962, McNamara supported a plan for mass spraying of the rice fields with herbicides in the Phu Yen mountains to starve
the Viet Cong out, a plan that was only stopped when W. Averell Harriman pointed out to Kennedy that the ensuing famine
would kill thousands of innocent people. In late 1962, McNamara ordered planning to withdraw the American advisers from
South Vietnam in 1964 as according to Pentagon calculations the war should be won by then. At the time, McNamara told
Kennedy: "There is a new feeling of confidence that victory is possible". {Wiki}

My name is McNamara, I'm the leader of the band,
I don't mind killing people, though my look is always bland.
Last edited by Andree on April 2nd, 2023, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bronxgirl48
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Bronxgirl48 »

Hibi wrote: March 27th, 2023, 12:40 pm
Bronxgirl48 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:52 pm The 1962 MOTB was on the TCM schedule last week so I decided to dive right in but as soon as Marlon opened his mouth, I just could not continue.

Andree, re: Vera Clouzot -- she wore those braids in DIABOLIQUE so that's why I thought your avatar was a publicity still from the movie.

ON GOLDEN POND (ugh) is on now following THE LOST WEEKEND -- how surreal, lol. (Billy Wilder is my favorite director)

Must respectfully disagree on THE YEARLING -- do not think it is preachy at all but just a lovely, picturesque, poignant coming-of-age story that does not overdo the sentiment.

On Golden Pond hasn't aged well. I tried watching it but bailed after around 10 mins. Watching it today, is just unbelievable it was nominated for 10 Oscars! Kate's win was so undeserved.








I know, right? The Academy just loves treacle like ON GOLDEN POND. Hank should have won for THE GRAPES OF WRATH. Don't know what they were thinking with Hepburn in this (and GUESS WHO'S COMING TO DINNER).
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Bronxgirl48
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Bronxgirl48 »

Intrepid37 wrote: April 1st, 2023, 8:55 am
Bronxgirl48 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:52 pm The 1962 MOTB was on the TCM schedule last week so I decided to dive right in but as soon as Marlon opened his mouth, I just could not continue.
I like Brando in that. His slightly foppish playboy take on Christian is different to be sure, but I like different.




I like different too but this was just too much for me, lol.
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Bronxgirl48
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Bronxgirl48 »

Andree wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:48 pm
Bronxgirl48 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:52 pm The 1962 MOTB was on the TCM schedule last week so I decided to dive right in but as soon as Marlon opened his mouth, I just could not continue.

Andree, re: Vera Clouzot -- she wore those braids in DIABOLIQUE so that's why I thought your avatar was a publicity still from the movie.

ON GOLDEN POND (ugh) is on now following THE LOST WEEKEND -- how surreal, lol. (Billy Wilder is my favorite director)

Must respectfully disagree on THE YEARLING -- do not think it is preachy at all but just a lovely, picturesque, poignant coming-of-age story that does not overdo the sentiment.
I skipped MOTB as I had seen it (for the first time) a few months ago. As I already posted, I got a total kick out of Marlon's lisping
aristo clotheshorse. I sure wasn't expecting it. I suppose it detracts a bit from the story, but what a crazy performance.

Vera's photo could be a still from Les Diaboliques though I don't recognize the dress, but that by itself doesn't mean it isn't.
I just love her sweet innocent expression. There are some photos of her with a short upswept hairdo that just looks awful to me.

For the most part I liked The Yearling, but it seemed to me the kid just couldn't do typical kids stuff without pa trying to
impart some lesson. I am glad that old Slewfoot the bear wasn't killed. When it's a human against an animal, I usually root for
the animal.

I've been watching the Columbo marathon today. Who should show up but the High Lama himself, Sam Jaffe. He played
the hubby of Janet Leigh, who wanted him to bankroll her return to Broadway along with her dance partner John Payne.
Sammy wouldn't go for it, so Janet decided to dispatch him. Now, who's the psycho? Jane Greer was in another episode.





Oh God Columbo LOL -- it plays 3 a.m. week-ends on the Sundance Channel here in South Florida so I occasionally drop in when I can't sleep to see which old Hollywood stars are in that particular episode. I don't remember that Gunga Din/Marion Crane/Fred Gailey one; sounds like good cheesy kitschy fun!

The only thing I've ever seen Jane Greer in other than her fantastic performance from OUT OF THE PAST is Patty Duke's mother in BILLIE. Quite a departure.
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Andree
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Andree »

Yeah, I get it on both the Sundance channel and the GAF channel. Since Sam Jaffe was the victim he was only in it for the first
twenty minutes or so. And Janet Leigh turned out to be one of the more sympathetic murderers on the show. 3 a.m. is too late for
me, but I sometimes watch it on the GAF channel from 1 a.m. to 2:45 a.m. GAF is running a Columbo marathon today, but
these are the 1980s and 1990s episodes when, for an obvious reason, there were fewer movie stars from the Golden Age. I see
Jane Greer every once in a while on a TV show, but not as often as some of the other old timers.
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BagelOnAPlate
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by BagelOnAPlate »

Bronxgirl48 wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 3:49 pm
Hibi wrote: March 27th, 2023, 12:40 pm
Bronxgirl48 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:52 pm The 1962 MOTB was on the TCM schedule last week so I decided to dive right in but as soon as Marlon opened his mouth, I just could not continue.

Andree, re: Vera Clouzot -- she wore those braids in DIABOLIQUE so that's why I thought your avatar was a publicity still from the movie.

ON GOLDEN POND (ugh) is on now following THE LOST WEEKEND -- how surreal, lol. (Billy Wilder is my favorite director)

Must respectfully disagree on THE YEARLING -- do not think it is preachy at all but just a lovely, picturesque, poignant coming-of-age story that does not overdo the sentiment.

On Golden Pond hasn't aged well. I tried watching it but bailed after around 10 mins. Watching it today, is just unbelievable it was nominated for 10 Oscars! Kate's win was so undeserved.
I know, right? The Academy just loves treacle like ON GOLDEN POND. Hank should have won for THE GRAPES OF WRATH. Don't know what they were thinking with Hepburn in this (and GUESS WHO'S COMING TO DINNER).
It's amazing that Katherine Hepburn won for Guess Who's Coming To Dinner over Edith Evans for The Whisperers .

And I know people will disagree with me, but I think that Barbra Streisand for Funny Girl should have been the sole winner the year that she tied with Katherine Hepburn for The Lion In Winter.
This was probably a true tie in terms of votes because I suspect that both Katherine Hepburn and Barbra Streisand voted for themselves!
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Detective Jim McLeod
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Detective Jim McLeod »

[/quote]

And I know people will disagree with me, but I think that Barbra Streisand for Funny Girl should have been the sole winner the year that she tied with Katherine Hepburn for The Lion In Winter.
This was probably a true tie in terms of votes because I suspect that both Katherine Hepburn and Barbra Streisand voted for themselves!
[/quote]

I agree with that. Streisand had one of the greatest debuts in movie history, excelling in comedy, drama and singing. She deserved the award solely. Though if non nominee Mia Farrow (Rosemary's Baby) had been up there, I think she would have deserved it.
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Detective Jim McLeod wrote: April 6th, 2023, 11:58 am
And I know people will disagree with me, but I think that Barbra Streisand for Funny Girl should have been the sole winner the year that she tied with Katherine Hepburn for The Lion In Winter.
This was probably a true tie in terms of votes because I suspect that both Katherine Hepburn and Barbra Streisand voted for themselves!
[/quote]

I agree with that. Streisand had one of the greatest debuts in movie history, excelling in comedy, drama and singing. She deserved the award solely. Though if non nominee Mia Farrow (Rosemary's Baby) had been up there, I think she would have deserved it.
[/quote]

If Streisand deserved to win the award solely, there would not have been a tie. To award only one person when there is a tie, would, in essence, cancel out all the other members that voted for the other person. PS: I would have voted for Streisand if I was a member.
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Swithin
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Swithin »

I saw Barbra Streisand on stage in Funny Girl and loved her performance (paid $3 for a box seat overlooking the stage). She didn't win the Tony Award in that incredibly competitive year for Best Actress in a Musical. The nominees were Beatrice Lillie (High Spirits); Streisand; Inga Swenson (110 in the Shade); and the deserving winner was: Carol Channing in Hello, Dolly! I didn't see Ms. Lillie but saw the other three (in that first year this teenager started going to the theater) and agree with the Tony choice, although Streisand and Swenson were great.

I haven't really liked Streisand on film. That Oscar year, I think either Hepburn should have won solo; or the winner should have been Patricia Neal for The Subject Was Roses.
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Hibi
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Hibi »

Swithin wrote: April 6th, 2023, 12:30 pm I saw Barbra Streisand on stage in Funny Girl and loved her performance (paid $3 for a box seat overlooking the stage). She didn't win the Tony Award in that incredibly competitive year for Best Actress in a Musical. The nominees were Beatrice Lillie (High Spirits); Streisand; Inga Swenson (110 in the Shade); and the deserving winner was: Carol Channing in Hello, Dolly! I didn't see Ms. Lillie but saw the other three (in that first year this teenager started going to the theater) and agree with the Tony choice, although Streisand and Swenson were great.

I haven't really liked Streisand on film. That Oscar year, I think either Hepburn should have won solo; or the winner should have been Patricia Neal for The Subject Was Roses.
Wasn't Audrey up the year before? Kate was also up that year and won (undeservedly again!)
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Swithin
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Swithin »

Hibi wrote: April 6th, 2023, 3:53 pm
Swithin wrote: April 6th, 2023, 12:30 pm I saw Barbra Streisand on stage in Funny Girl and loved her performance (paid $3 for a box seat overlooking the stage). She didn't win the Tony Award in that incredibly competitive year for Best Actress in a Musical. The nominees were Beatrice Lillie (High Spirits); Streisand; Inga Swenson (110 in the Shade); and the deserving winner was: Carol Channing in Hello, Dolly! I didn't see Ms. Lillie but saw the other three (in that first year this teenager started going to the theater) and agree with the Tony choice, although Streisand and Swenson were great.

I haven't really liked Streisand on film. That Oscar year, I think either Hepburn should have won solo; or the winner should have been Patricia Neal for The Subject Was Roses.
Wasn't Audrey up the year before? Kate was also up that year and won (undeservedly again!)
I love Kate so I'm not complaining. I actually knew Tony Harvey, who directed her in her win in 1968. He was very close to her, up until the end of her life.

Yes, the previous year the nominees were the two Hepburns, Bancroft, Dunaway, and Edith Evans.
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Intrepid37
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Intrepid37 »

kingrat wrote: April 6th, 2023, 9:22 pmI'd add Diane Cilento for Hombre in place of K. Hepburn.
Yes! Absolutely.

She was excellent in that role.
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Swithin
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Re: MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

Post by Swithin »

kingrat wrote: April 6th, 2023, 9:22 pm
It's amazing that Katherine Hepburn won for Guess Who's Coming To Dinner over Edith Evans for The Whisperers .

And I know people will disagree with me, but I think that Barbra Streisand for Funny Girl should have been the sole winner the year that she tied with Katherine Hepburn for The Lion In Winter.
This was probably a true tie in terms of votes because I suspect that both Katherine Hepburn and Barbra Streisand voted for themselves!
[/quote]

To me, Katharine Hepburn in Guess Who's Coming To Dinner gives a pleasant but familiar personality performance, the weakest of the five nominees: Edith Evans, Anne Bancroft, Faye Dunaway, Audrey Hepburn, all first-rate. I'd add Diane Cilento for Hombre in place of K. Hepburn.
[/quote]
_________________________________________________________
I agree that Edith Evans should have won that year. Re: Barbra, whom I'm not fond of on film: One of the great cinematic mistakes: not casting Carol Channing in the film of Hello, Dolly!

I disagreed with a few of Oscars Best Actress choices in the 1960s. I would have picked Kim Stanley over Julie Andrews; Simone Signoret over Julie Christie; and though I adore Kate and am happy that she won twice, I would have picked Edith Evans; and Patricia Neal the following year. But in the tough Oscar year of 1969, they made the right choice: Maggie Smith for The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, though everyone else in the category excelled.
Last edited by Swithin on April 7th, 2023, 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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