Casablanca

[melwalton]

Patsy

Your post is ambiguous. What I get from it, not real clearly is that you're calling me an anti fan ( whatever that is ) And a criminal which I certainly am not!
I won't lose any sleep over the idea that you find me disgusting, It's reciprocal, believe me.

I'm not a 'Hipster' either. I've never tried to disguise my age, I'm 88 although I don't see where that's relevant.

[cinemalover]

Ciao Patsy,
No worries. Your opinions are very welcome here. Sometimes we may ask for clarification so we can understand the point someone is trying to make. Everyone in this forum is very good about respecting opposing points of view, no matter how much we may disagree with them. I love movies but I learn a ton from people who don't always agree with my opinion. One of the best examples of this is going on right now down in the "Choose the best movie of all time" forum. We are voting on our favorite movies while voting others off of the island, so to speak. In the context of that little endeavor I have learned so much about other members' tastes and personalities. It has been a fascinating study for me. I have come to appreciate areas of certain films that I had never considered before. I invite you to come on down and a cast a vote or two. It's a good way to introduce yourself to the other members and share some thoughts on a variety of films.

Hoping you'll join the fun,
Chris

[Mr. Arkadin]

Patsy,

No worries here. I like stimulating conversation and if we all agreed on everything, I'd be bored to tears. I'm glad to see someone stick up for the film. As I said earlier, I don't hate this movie. I just don't think it's the greatest film ever made. There are sections of it I do enjoy, It just doesn't work as a cohesive film for me.

Glad you spoke up. I understood what you meant about age.

[moira finnie]

Dear Mel and Ciao Patsy,
I think that we're running into a small, inadvertent misunderstanding regarding each others' well-intended and thoughtful remarks about Casablanca. This seems to happen because, unfortunately, we can't hear the intonation in each other's voices or the expression on our faces. I enjoy reading each of your posts enormously and hope that you'll continue posting here.

I see exactly what Mel means about Casablanca and its reputation being built in part on "other lists". Too true, though the affection that some of us feel for this movie probably has to do with Bogart's and the other actors' performances as much as the time when it came out. Correct me if I'm wrong would you please, Mel? Wasn't part of the success of Casablanca in the '40s due to the first successful invasion of that area of North Africa by the Allies that occurred around the time of the film's release? Didn't it help people to identify with the urgency of the film and, since that was the first time when the Allies worked together (with mixed results) against the Axis, people were naturally keen to see any films with related stories?

Btw Mel,
When you saw Col. Blimp in England was the theatre full of English people and a few American servicemen, and if so, what were these groups' reactions? I'd love to know.

And hey, Mel, I'm proudly about as Un-Hip as they come, call the refrigerator the ice box, read Today in History in the newspaper before the headlines, wish that cars still had motors that I could decipher, and, since I've recently found people calling me "m'am" occasionally instead of "miss", I guess I'm no spring chicken anymore, so who cares about being cool or with it...anyway. I generally ignore inquiries about age on the internet for the most part, though I don't think that Ciao Patsy intended to cast any aspersions on anyone's age, but was simply curious, as many new people are when they stumble into our little Shangri-La.).

Ciao Patsy,
I don't think that you meant to imply that there's anything disgusting about Mel nor do I think that you had any ulterior motives in asking about our groups' composition. We're pretty eclectic, though I think many of us are in our 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond. Hey, the more
varied a group, the better. I loathe offices where it's all men or women, all kids or near retirees, (and I've been the oddball in several such settings), and find that a real mix of ages and backgrounds is delightful and healthy. I think it's lovely and most of all, stimulating, to have a mix--even if, as with most human experiences, sometimes we differ in opinions, experiences, and perceptions. Again, I hope that you'll both continue to post here. You're both welcome additions.
Thanks,
moira

[Dawtrina]

My impressions of Casablanca have always been a little different from most other widely acknowledged classics, mostly because it really shouldn't be that good but somehow is. It's that 'somehow' that's the magic and it may not be definable. Magic rarely is, that's why it's magic.

Everything I read about the film screams that nobody expected it to be anything special, whether they be cited facts or just rumours. It was an A film but wasn't pushed. It cost more than the average film but wasn't expensive. George Raft turned down the part of Rick because he didn't want to be associated with a 'cheap' production. It wasn't even a huge hit initially but grew over the year of release until it won the Oscar. Nobody cast or hired seemed to be the first choice. Whether these things are true or not, and some may not be, they do feel right.

Technically it's not a great film. People who analyse it frame by frame end up with all sorts of inconsistencies and errors and bits that really shouldn't be there. Yet somehow it works, and still works today, sixty years later in a different world. There's definitely something there.

I haven't worked out what that something is yet, though I've seen the film often enough. Maybe it's the fact the cast is incredible and each actor brought something extra to their roles, the 'alright on the night' syndrome or the sum of the parts being greater than the whole. Maybe it's that it's a Hollywood movie but it has very few Americans in it. Being English, one of my pet peeves is Americans playing non-Americans (and vice versa, to be fair) because they rarely pull it off. Maybe, as Roger Ebert suggests, it's because almost everyone's a good guy. Maybe it's because it has a little of almost every genre there is.

[melwalton]

Hi, Moira. Always nice to talk with you.
I'm willing to forget the altercation, let's say it never happened. Of course, I intend to continue posting and reading posts here; I love this site. The topics are so very interesting and the people so very nice.
I didn't see 'Casablanca' when it first came out' we were limited somewhat. I did see some movies in England including 'Col Blimp' but it was so long ago, all I remember is that I liked it very much. Thanks, Moira, you're a doll. ..... mel

[mrsl]

I'm just putting in about 4 cents here.

iciao patsy: Great post! Keep it up, you're doing just fine.

melwalton: Nearly every 'best' list I've ever seen, other than here, has had Citizen Kane as the best movie ever made. I disagree heartily. In addition most people consider Orson Welles a genius, but I consider him an egotistical jerk, with very little talent.

I doubt if there is a way to determine a 'best' movie because there are so many variables to consider in choosing a best anything. Some people think drama is better than comedy and vice versa, some prefer musicals, yet others can't stand them. So it really is impossible to say what is 'best'. I could recommend a restaurant as the best food in the world, yet if you went, you may get a night when the main chef is off and your meal may not be so good, so you would say 'what is so 'best' about this place?'

As I always say, 'to each his own'. You're probably right about some people using choices from other lists, but they really aren't that hard to spot, and you learn to just scroll past them. I've even seen people on TCM copy a list line for line, in order, and change only one movie down around number 20 or so and think they got away with it.

I doubt that any 2 people will agree 100% on any list of 25 best unless they are forced to choose as we are doing in the rounds that are progressing right now. Also, how do you choose a best? Is it best because it is made well, with great acting, photography, plot, story, and camerawork, or is it best because it strikes a note in your heart that makes you love it enough to watch it 150 times and never get tired of it? So you see, what is best?

Anne

[Mr. Arkadin]

My wife and I were talking about Citizen Kane and Casablanca. While we agreed that some people liked (and disliked) both films, most people seem to prefer one film over the other. We discussed this for quite awhile (or maybe I rambled and she listened ). Finally, she just looked at me and said "It's very simple. One of them is muse (Kane), and one of them is amusement (Casablanca)." I wondered why I hadn't thought of that years ago.

[Lzcutter]

On a completely different subject concerning Casablanca, is anyone interesting in conjecturing about the back story?

I have some theories but would love to hear first what others infer about the Ilsa/Rick back story as well as the Sam/Rick back story.

Any takers?

[movieman1957]

Do you mean what happened after Paris? During? Why she left?

I haven't seen it in some time but I'd like to think Sam was around to pick up the pieces of/for Rick. He was loyal and, I'm sure, discreet. How they may have met could be almost anthing or anywhere. I'd think the war was too new for them to have been war buddies. WWI too old? Don't know.

[mrsl]

Hi Lynn:

I see Rick and Sam not as lifelong 'buddies' per se, but more as a loyal employee/employer relationship. I mean, I think before the war Rick had some sort of business or something where Sam worked for him, and ended up just following him because he had nowhere else to go. Rick is too much the 'boss' to Sam's 'obedience' if you will. They don't joke around like two buddies, Sam advises but not with authority. There is no joviality, but there is an underlying respect for each other, but also a kind of hero worship on Sam's part. Even though I suspect Sam would have been there to care for him when Rick fell apart after Ilsa left, it was more in the manner of a loyal valet than a "let me borrow your dinner jacket" type of 'friend'.

I never considered the whys or hows of the Rick/Ilsa relationship. I'll watch it again and see if anything comes up.

Anne

[vallo]

I'm also don't think Rick and Sam were "Lifelong buddies" Because Renault tells Rick he knows that he ran guns to Ethiopia (was Sam with Him?) And Producer Hal B. Wallis nearly made the character Sam a female. as per IMDb
The only back drop story was Carls (S.Z. Sakall) when he is referred to as "Professor" by a waiter.

Bill (vallo)

[knitwit45]

I've always thought that Sam and Rick rescued each other...one from a life of servitude and second class citizenship, and the other from despair and the bottle. I also think Rick sent for Sam as soon as it was safe to do so, perhaps after the war, perhaps during.

The inspector, Monsieur Rains, died in the war, ferociously fighting in the underground.

I will always, always, ALWAYS tear up when I hear, "But we'll always have Paris". sigh....

[Lzcutter]

Thanks for all the responses!

I think Sam came over from America as part of Josephine Baker's troupe. After that gig ended, he bounced around Paris and ended up playing in nite clubs to pay the rent and eat. It is there that Rick first meets him.

When Rick opens La Belle Aurore, he hires Sam. They have a employee/employer relationship that develops into more of a friendship. This is sparked mainly by Ilsa leaving Rick at the train station. Rick goes on an extended bender and it is Sam who takes care of him during this time.

Once Rick snaps out of it and begins to rebuild his life, Sam becomes an integral part of that. Thus they travel together to Casablanca and Rick opens the Cafe American with Sam as the featured musician.

Ilsa walks back into their lives reminding them both of those dark days after Paris.


Rick has become hardened to life because Ilsa walked out on him. He is
reminded that perhaps not all is what it seems by the young Bulgarian woman willing to sleep with Louie to secure exit visas for her husband and
herself. She tries to convince herself and Rick that a woman can do a "bad
thing" if her lover never finds out. Rick realizes that the wall he built
around himself after Ilsa may be built on a faulty foundation.


Ilsa loves Victor and is willing to do anything to protect him.

Rick okays the band to play the French national anthem. Victor steps up to
the plate and begins the singing. Ilsa is reminded of one of the reasons she loves Victor, his impact on people, his devotion to the cause, his belief in what is right.

Rick and Ilsa do not sleep together when she goes to Rick's room while
Victor is at the Underground meeting. After sleeping with her, would Rick
put on the same clothes we saw him in the seduction scene? Code or not, I think not.

They have a passionate kiss or two or three and Ilsa explains what happened and why she left Rick at the train station.

She is torn between two men.

Rick rediscovers his humanity: the humanity that made him a gun-runner in Ethopia (look what being a gun runner did fortune wise for Rhett Butler,
made him a millionaire) and fighting for the Loyalists in Spain. Yes, they
paid him well but he did it because they were causes he believed in.

He sticks his neck out for no one until Ilsa and the young Bulgarian
newlywed remind him of his humanity. Once that comes back into play, he puts into motion the final outcome, he will walk away from Ilsa because Victor without her is but a shell.

Sure, Victor believes in the cause and what it can
accomplish but she provides his passion. Rick realizes after talking to the
Bulgarian newlywed the power of love and how it drives both Victor and Ilsa.

He also realizes that it is time he got back into the game of believing in
causes not only for financial gain but for his personal growth as well.

Renault and Strausser are concerned about a leader rising in the Vichy held territories. They fear that leader will be Victor Lazlo. They are wrong. The leader will be Rick.

Those are my two cents!