The Most Catholic Film

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ken123
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The Most Catholic Film

Post by ken123 »

A few years ago the rightwing magazine Catholicism in Crisis ( now Crisis magazine ) called John Ford's The Grapes of Wrath the most Catholic and liberal film of the 1940's because it expressed perhaps unwittingly by Ford, Steinbeck, and Nunnally Johnson the social doctrine of the Church. IMHO too bad that the Church has drifted away from its social precepts. :(
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

I'd never really thought of The Grapes of Wrath as a Catholic film. If there is a 'religious' undertone in films, I'd rather see it as a message about faith in general, to be kinder, have faith, believe in miracles etc. prefer these films to leave the option for belief to be up to the viewer. Ordet is a good example of this.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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ChiO
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Post by ChiO »

If you want a Roman Catholic film, albeit from a particular branch, then, by his own admission, watch any of (hello, moirafinnie) Bresson's films. THE DIARY OF A COUNTRY PRIEST and MOUCHETTE come immediately to mind. I'll admit that they don't scream "Roman Catholic" (as opposed to Christianity generally) at me, but that is probably due to my ignorance of Roman Catholicism. They certainly deal with matters of faith and one's relationship with a higher power.
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
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Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
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ken123
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Post by ken123 »

It is a Catholic film in the sense that caring for the poor and disadvantaged is one of the main concerns of the Church and that FDR used Catholic social doctrine as a basis of his New Deal program. This was before the ( USA ) Church aligned itself with the Social Darwinist GOP. Though it had some pro GOP elements, in the hierarchy, since the late 1940's because of the domestic Communist threat. :(
MikeBSG
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Post by MikeBSG »

Of course, the John Carradine character, Casey, the former preacher, is usually seen as a Christ figure in the novel and the movie. He has the initials JC and his last words before he is murdered are "You don't know what you're doing," which is somewhat like "They don't know what they do." However, I know Catholics who are offended by Casey's message that "there isn't any good or bad, just stuff that people do."

I never really thought of "Grapes of Wrath" (the movie) as Catholic as pro-Federal government, because things rapidly improve once the Joads get to the government camp, and the guy who runs the camp seems clean, calm and all-knowing.

Frankly, I tend to think of Catholic movies as "Angels with Dirty Faces," "Going My Way," and "The Bells of St. Mary's."
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mrsl
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Post by mrsl »

The movies mikebsg listed are seemingly Catholic because the main characters are priests and nuns. I'm not saying they are not catholic films, only that they really don't portray the religion in a true manner. For that you have to come forward a little to see how the religion has evolved during modern times, and again since the Vatican II in the 70's when a lot more of the edicts were eased up. Note the difference between Elvis Presleys' Change of Habit nuns, and Debbie Reynolds' The Singing Nun, and even more to Roz Russells' The Trouble with Angels. Vatican II changed so much that a lot of the oldsters couldn't understand it. Masses said in English, guitar music in church, normal people walking inside the communion rail, and handling your own communion disc -- Wow, Unheard of things. For the true meaning of Catholicism, a good example is Gregory Pecks' Keys to the Kingdom, a part he should have won an oscar for, about a priest devoting his life to attempting to bring Christianity to the peasants of China, while fighting a cold war with the local war lord, while his pals from school are making it big back on the home fronts.

Finally, as a Born and raised Catholic, as well as fallen away, I never could accept the long lasting friendship between Spencer Tracy and Cecil Kellaway in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. At that particular time, priests were not all that family friendly - they did not come over for dinner, nor stop by while they were in the neighborhood, etc. Also, a Catholic priest and a self proclaimed agnostic, again at that time, I don't believe would have been so friendly. It may be different now, and I'm sure some of you did have priests who were family friendly, but not in the neighborhoods I lived in.

With this comparison of movies, and not personal experiences, I hope I responded to Ken123's first paragraph about the Church and its' social precepts.

Anne
Anne


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Mr. Arkadin
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Post by Mr. Arkadin »

If you're looking for Catholicism in film, Fellini, Rossellini, and Buñuel have left a legacy and Bresson is certainly not far behind.

For an American film I'd suggest a director and film influenced by those works: Martin Scorsese's Mean Streets (1973).
Last edited by Mr. Arkadin on September 18th, 2008, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ChiO
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Post by ChiO »

I guess I need a working definition of "Catholic film" to better appreciate the thoughtful comments.

It strikes me that there have been at least discrete three possibilities mentioned on this thread:

(1) Films that have overt references to persons or things that are associated with Roman Catholicism, e.g., priest, nun, cathedral.

(2) Films "about" matters of faith, forgiveness, service, God, etc. that are a part of Roman Catholicism, but not unique to it.

(3) Films that demonstrate a uniquely Roman Catholic perspective in its approach to earthly and spiritual matters.

Of course, there can be overlap among those three. To be "a Roman Catholic film" must the director or screenwriter (or creator of the source material) be a Roman Catholic? Is there an intended distinction between "a Catholic film" and "a Roman Catholic film"? (That's a hair that I often split, but I always assume -- perhaps erroneously -- that when a person says "Catholic" it is intended as a reference to "Roman Catholic" rather than any Christian denomination that professes adherence to the Apostles Creed/Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed and, therefore, considers itself to be "catholic".)
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
Mr. Arkadin
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Post by Mr. Arkadin »

ChiO,

You make good points. I chose directors that dealt with Roman Catholicism and its points of view. There are many films that deal with priests or nuns, but little is made of their religion or sect of faith. Many times these characters represent a Christ figure or simple goodness in the face of conflict. Films that deal with spiritual values again cast a broad net.

On the other hand, Rossellini's Flowers of St. Francis (1950), The Miracle (1948), Fellini’s 8 1/2 (1963) , La Dolce Vita (1960), Buñuel’s Simon of the Desert (1965), Nazarin (1959), and Virdiana (1961) are very much steeped in Roman Catholicism (some are actual criticisms on the Catholic Church and its failure to live up to Christ’s teachings).

Mean Streets applies the Catholic ideals of sin, penance, and absolution to real life. Charlie is flawed and broken by an ideology that might be beautiful in (man’s) principal, but is unworkable in practice. Charlie understands what good and evil are. He also knows sin must be paid for and is looking over his shoulder the entire film, waiting for the bill to arrive. I could say a lot more, but I'll stop here. :wink:
Last edited by Mr. Arkadin on September 18th, 2008, 6:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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mrsl
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Post by mrsl »

A director only has to be sure the actors portray the characters correctly as the screenwriter intends them to be, however, the screenwriter, if he is writing about deep meanings, and credos, should probably be of the religion, only because many people, not of the Catholic religion do not understand many of the things we do. Which brings me to your comment about Catholic and Roman Catholic. Even at my age, I was not aware of any religion that refers to itself as 'catholic' other than the Roman Catholic. I was under the impression that England at one time called itself English Catholic, but I thought that was before that King, whoever it was, re-wrote the bible and much of the religious edicts and from that time it was referred to as Episcopalian. I may be wrong, as I said, that was my impression, and if so, I apologize.


Anne
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ChiO
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Post by ChiO »

Anne: No apology -- to me anyway -- is necessary. In the Divine Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox Church (and Russian, et al.) and, I believe, the Roman Catholic Church, the Creed (variously known as the Apostles' Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Profession of Faith, and the Symbol of Our Faith) is recited. The ninth sentence (proceeded by the "I believe" in the first sentence) is:

In One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The Orthodox consider themselves to be Catholic or, probably more accurately, members of the Catholic Church -- but not members of the Roman Catholic Church. There may be some Protestant denominations that feel similarly.

More directly on point, the films that Mr. Arkadin cites do strike me as Roman Catholic films for the reasons he gives. Bresson's too, though as I understand it his adherence to a nonmainstream branch of Roman Catholicism (Jansenism) could raise some questions, but probably more on emphasis than on general doctrine.

Or, maybe this just a conspiracy to get me to rewatch a Ford movie, THE GRAPES OF WRATH. At least the cinematography was by Gregg Toland. I'll check with the Patriarch and get back to you. :wink:
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
jdb1

Post by jdb1 »

It sounds to me as though the films mentioned thus far all deal in some way with church doctrine or theological philosophy with a Roman Catholic slant.

For me the most "Catholic" movie, that is, one that lovingly presents the Catholic Church, its beliefs and its practices, in a kind of attractive, public relations way, is the minor programmer Sally and Saint Anne with Ann Blyth as a schoolgirl whose neighbors and family believe has a direct prayer pipeline to St. Anne. It's a family comedy, and it's the most overtly pro-Catholic movie I've ever seen. It's entertaining, too.
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ken123
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Post by ken123 »

The American Church hierarchy supports the social darwinist GOP because of Republicans are pro - life.( ie anti - aborption ) ( what a joke ) Chicago Cardinal George has recenty written a letter the supports the war mongering ticket of McCain - Pallin. The Grand Knight of The Knights of Columbus ( A Catholic faternal men organization ) about two weeks ago had an op - ed column, in the Chicago Sun - Times ) saying that the Obama - Biden team will not receive traditional Catholic amd Evangelical support,because the Democratic Party are are sufficiently not " pro - life " FDR's New Deal was, to a large degree, derived from Catholic social doctrine and the Church is aligned with a political party that wants to destroy the New Deal . Both parties leave alot to be desired but except for sexually related issue the Demcrats are closer to the Church's traditional teaching that is the hate driven GOP. :(
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