Westerns

[rohanaka]

Can't say too much good about Unforgiven, either. (though in all fairness.. I shouldn't say too much bad either.. because I haven't seen it in a very long time (and only saw it once) so my memory may not be TOO clear.

But I think I have to agree with others that the biggest issues I have with the film would be the level of gratuitous violence coupled with having no clear "hero" to cheer for. As I am remembering it.. the story ended up being more or less all about vengeance.. as I recall. (not really a movie theme I am altogether fond of) But again.. I confess I could be wrong about it all as I haven't seen it in so long.

And I will add too that everyone has their own spin on what they like to watch and why... so one person's "vengeance is mine, and I LIKE it" movie is another person's "stomach turner' ha.

Yet, to be fair, I guess a case COULD be made that it was really more about watching Clint's character revert to his true nature.. sort of what you said, Mr. Movieman.. he more or less returns to his natural self (maybe in his case.. you can't change who you REALLY are as a person) And his kids (and the fact that he is their father) holds so little restraint on him that he pretty much just forgets they exist.. at least while he is killing and maiming.. and killing some more.

Again.. not exactly a movie theme I am altogether fond of.. though I confess, sometimes it is intriguing to watch a character unravel. (but I just hate having to wade through all that blood to do it, ha)

[JackFavell]

Kathy, you've brought back so much of the movie to me in your post. I just couldn't find a redeeming feature to this movie... and maybe that was the point? I would NEVER pile on a film that someone really liked, but for me it was just an unpleasant experience, and I personally need some redeeming moment in dramatic films. That being said, I try to keep an open mind about films, so I may go back and see if the person I am now can handle those aspects a little better. But it's gonna be a hard slog to get me to the point where I am ready to watch it again.

[rohanaka]

Wendy.. I am sure you are right that it could be possible to find more to a movie after a second viewing. Wouldn't be the first time. And I know this film has its fan-base. It WAS a huge award winning film, afterall. So I am sure there is more to it and it was not all about the carnage, though it just has been so long.. WELL over 15 years since I saw it, I absolutely can't remember.

I looked it up online just to refresh my memory on some of the details and somewhere I read that one of the people Eastwood dedicated this film to was Sergio Leone.. which says a LOT to me ..ha. because I am NO kind of Leone fan.. generally speaking. So that could also have something to do with my negative feelings as well. I am not as big a fan of the whole antihero spin most of the Leone movies I have seen seem to have.

But I think after reading a bit on this movie, I do recall there were some things that make it go deeper than just shooting and killing and killing some more. (as in.. the one character who wants to BE a killer.. and ends up hating it. I can't recall TOO much about him, but I do recall him now. It says something about who he is.. and he finds that he is NOT the killer he wants to be and that it is more than an idolized fantasy sort of life) But meanwhile, after reading.. I think it also says something that Eastwood's character wants to "hate" it or at least leave that sort of life behind.. but in reality.. it is too much a part of who he is and he becomes what he says he doesn't want to be all over again. (in a way.. it almost reminds me (a little.... only a little) of the character from Slingblade. Was he a killer because he killed people?? Or did he kill people because he was a killer?)

There are a lot of deep wells you could fall into probably, trying to sort it all out.. ha. So as you say.. "slog" would be the right word to use to describe what I would have to do to find the bottom of the well, from what I remember. ha.


Hope you get a better result watching the second time. Will be interesting to see if you find more to like after all the "slogging"

[JackFavell]

That all makes a lot of sense, those reviews and deeper aspects to the movie that I just didn't really 'get' the first time around. Now I'm starting to remember that character you mentioned, the one not cut out to be a killer - because I think I clung to him in my mind watching the first time...just trying to latch onto something that seemed human or reasonable! What you just wrote about Eastwood's character becoming the thing he hates because it's just in him makes me want to try again someday... but meanwhile, there are SO many other movies I really WANT to see before I ever get around to watching Unforgiven again...

[Mr. Arkadin]

I guess I'll be the one to stick up for Unforgiven. There are a lot of great ideas and themes in the movie which basically deconstructs the mythology of the old west and gives viewers what they claim to want (violence and a gun battle) while revealing the hard truth of what taking a human life actually means. If anything, Unforgiven is an anti-violence film that educates through various situations that occur in many westerns, but are shown here in an unromantic light. Eastwood is a reformed man, who takes a bounty hunter job to feed his family, but can he shed that persona and return to his ruthless ways to earn that money--and if he can become that man--can he become a peaceful farmer again? There are many allusions to other western classics such as Shane (1953), where Hackman's sheriff teaches a bumbling reporter the truth about guns. There is also hard realism in moments where the Schofield Kid must shoot a man at point blank range because of his poor eyesight and reminisces about the killing:

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The film ends as it began--on a farm with an old man standing in front of the grave of a woman, who rescued his soul and mothered his children. A woman he still loves and seeks understanding from, despite all that he's done.

[JackFavell]

THANK you Joel, for stepping in! I was interested in an opinion from someone who liked (or at least appreciated) the film so I could find something to latch onto the next time I see it. This gives me a reason to give it another try.

[rohanaka]

And see now, Jackie.. THAT's what you might find if you are willing to slog down to the bottom of that "deep well" I mentioned, ha. Thanks for sharing the other side, Mr.A. because I DO believe there is a different way to see the story than just a big ole bloodbath, ha. And yet, I still don't think this is a film I'll ever latch onto and truly "like" (though I do confess some may change their mind upon a second viewing)

And I don't recall all the events that lead up to that moment in the clip that you posted (as well as I should, in order to say much more) but I certainly can agree that is a great conversation (minus the graphic words) It really does hit home some of the themes that you mention, sir.

[JackFavell]

Thanks for chatting, my friends. I do think I might see it a little differently now that I've been through so many conversations with you people here, it's led me to look more deeply.

[movieman1957]

If you are willing to watch it again. Let me know and we'll get it a more contemporary discussion.

[JackFavell]

I will. I just hope I don't come out of it with the same bad taste in my mouth, which of course is always possible! I think maybe when I was younger, I was pretty stodgy in my film likes. I am a little more open-minded, and I like to think I've grown, movie wise. That doesn't mean I will think the movie is great! But at least I can give the themes a fair shake instead of simply being shocked and appalled at the guts and language.

As I was washing the dishes just now, I was thinking about this thread. Those themes you put so well, Ro and Joel, are ones that I am usually really interested in, and that clip did more to make me want to see it over again than anything else we've discussed. But I remember it being surrounded by a whole lot of bleak.

Ro, I think a lot of you because you said you went back and read up on the movie as a little refresher, checking the reviews and trying to see something other than your own opinion. It shows that you are open, with an inquiring mind, and a person who is willing to go the extra mile to give the opposing view it's due.

Joel, I also think you are pretty special, because you jumped in to talk about a movie when everyone else was cutting it down, which shows how passionate you are about all movies getting a just examination. It's a tough thing to do, and I especially liked your rough summation of the themes, it will definitely help when I go to look a second time. GULP!

[RedRiver]

I haven't seen many post John Wayne westerns I was crazy about. SILVERADO is stylish and colorful. That's about all. OPEN CITY has atmosphere; intriguing, if not admirable, characters. Story? That wasn't too impressive. Don't even ask me about DANCES WITH WOLVES. I was flat-out bored! TOMBSTONE is good. But is shooting everybody in town a sufficient conclusion? That's not really imaginative!

Maybe Hollywood drifted so far, for so long, from this time honored genre, they've forgotten how it's done.

[movieman1957]

"Open City" or "Open Range"?

I agree about "Silverado." I thought it was always kind of a fun homage to westerns. Is there a John Wayne western you like?(I certainly don't mean that to come across in a nasty tone.)

Maybe they have drifted. I'm about to find out. "The Assassination of Jesse James...." is sitting on my piano.

Among other more modern westerns.... I was confused some by "Appaloosa" (Ed Harris.) The 2007 "3:10" is okay in its own right I guess but it pales next to the original. Maybe there's too much of a shootout in the end. I kept comparing.

I think the collection of TV westerns done 10-15 years ago by Selleck and Sam Elliott may be closer to the traditional feel of westerns.

Maybe for the others that if they go back to "Unforgiven" we'll give it its own thread.

[RedRiver]

"Open City" or "Open Range"?

Oops! I particularly like the sequence where the Germans invade Kansas!

[knitwit45]

"Open City" or "Open Range"?

Oops! I particularly like the sequence where the Germans invade Kansas!

Whaaaaaaa???????? Ro, move over, I'm headed your way.......

[rohanaka]

Ro, move over, I'm headed your way.......

Ha! Come on over, anytime, Neighbor. The Missouri side of town is only just a few miles away.

PS: Ms Favell... don't be too impressed by me.. I only looked up the storyline to refresh my old and fading memory. ha. (I was afraid I was starting to sound like, "too much blood, violence, blah, blah, blah!") I decided I better check out what I only THOUGHT I was remembering. ha. It is getting to be a necessity for me in my old age.