Anybody else watch westerns besides me?

[mrsl]

I feel kind of embarrassed that my name is the last name on the last 6 threads, but I can't seem to get anyone who wants to discuss that genre.

Well anyway. The other day I watched The Law and Jake Wade on the Western channel and was kind of surprised. I've heard and read comments on this movie about how good it was, and how different, but I don't see what people are saying. Oddly one of my favorite (Widmark), and one of my least favorite (Robert Taylor), are the stars. I don't see any exceptional acting from either of them, or any special plot idiosyncrasies that would make me want to revisit it often. Actually, I'm glad it was in color because there were so many scenes of them all just riding in line through the desert, that the only thing to enjoy was the scenery around them. I've seen The Searchers, Two Rode Together, and most of the Scott/Boetticher movies countless times and will see them all again, but they were good action packed films that kept me interested, but Jake Wade was like watching paint drying on the wall.

What did I miss?

Anne

[movieman1957]

I saw "The Law and Jake Wade" a few months ago and it wasn't as good as I remembered it. I like Richard Widmark but I thought the whole middle of the movie was pretty slow. The end was pretty good but it sure did take a long time to get there. Every time Taylor would try and get away there was Widmark waiting for him.

If it is Widmark you want try "Warlock." Taylor's best, that I have seen is "Westward The Women."

I like westerns a lot so we'll see what we can do. Every now and then I go through here to see if there is something to bring up again. If you find one you like pull it up and we'll have a go.

[jdb1]

I have a topic of discussion for you:

Maybe you can figure out for me why I don't really like Westerns very much any more. I certainly used to, but now I find them generally ponderous, and sometimes too self-important (especially the "major" ones). The minor ones are pretty silly, but I find I can sit through them with less strain than I feel watching the bigger productions.

I understand the iconic structure of Westerns in terms of drama and Americana, but I now find them somehow unsatisfying. What are the strengths and weaknesses of the genre, as you see them?

[Ann Harding]

I saw The Law and Jake Wade many times on TV as a teenager. It's a fairly good western thanks to Richard Widmark. (Movieman is right: Warlock is fab! )
As for Robert Taylor, he made some really interesting westerns such as Mann's Devil's Doorway which thanks to John Alton's cinematography looks like a film noir, Westward the Women and The Last Hunt where he plays an evil character, a buffalo hunter who doesn't mind killing a few Indians in the process.

I am probably less prone to watch westerns than I used to a few years back. I am also disturbed now by the underlying prejudices in them (especially when Indians are depicted as murderous savages and are just there to get shot at). But now I have discovered silent westerns which proved a revelation: nothing has been invented in talkies! All the themes and stories had already been treated in silents. From The Covered Wagon to Hell's Hinges, you can recognise The Big Trail or High Plain Drifter. So perhaps, you should get hold of a few silent westerns, MrsL, you will be very impressed I am sure!

[movieman1957]

Judith:

Do you find them too similar? I think there are maybe 10 or 12 real western story lines. The trick is how they play them. Maybe you've just tired of them. One reason why I find "Silverado" fun is that it seems to try and get them all into one movie. (It avoids the Indians but hits most of the rest.)

I like them because they are different from other genres. They are about things that were real but have little chance of happening now, at least for me. Part of it is the adventure. Part the openness of them. Part the freedom that people had to just get up and go. In a way war pictures and action adventure pictures are similar. The often clear cut good guys/bad guys dealings. There is an honor system as well. Except for the thing that "Miss Harding" mentioned about treatment of Indians which is troubling but I dare say has some truth to it I always have in my head that it is just a movie.

Maybe that is why dramas (excepting sci-fi) are the films I watch least though I enjoy them. They run risk of being too potential in some cases.

I find it interesting that so many of the ladies here (as opposed to others I know) find/found them interesting. I'd be interested to know what appealed to women.

I hope all that makes sense.

[MissGoddess]

I find it interesting that so many of the ladies here (as opposed to others I know) find/found them interesting. I'd be interested to know what appealed to women.

Chris, for me, I like them for all the reasons you named PLUS I do not enjoy movies centered on weak characters or stories that are morally ambiguous; westerns are freer of such modern taints, in general. Modern westerns being the exception, which is why I don't care for most of them.

Oh, and one more reason: there a few things more satisfying to me than watching a good horseman riding flat out.

[jdb1]

Judith:

Do you find them too similar? I think there are maybe 10 or 12 real western story lines. The trick is how they play them. Maybe you've just tired of them. One reason why I find "Silverado" fun is that it seems to try and get them all into one movie. (It avoids the Indians but hits most of the rest.)

I like them because they are different from other genres. They are about things that were real but have little chance of happening now, at least for me. Part of it is the adventure. Part the openness of them. Part the freedom that people had to just get up and go. In a way war pictures and action adventure pictures are similar. The often clear cut good guys/bad guys dealings. There is an honor system as well. Except for the thing that "Miss Harding" mentioned about treatment of Indians which is troubling but I dare say has some truth to it I always have in my head that it is just a movie.

Maybe that is why dramas (excepting sci-fi) are the films I watch least though I enjoy them. They run risk of being too potential in some cases.

I find it interesting that so many of the ladies here (as opposed to others I know) find/found them interesting. I'd be interested to know what appealed to women.

I hope all that makes sense.

Yes, Chris, it makes perfect sense. I think I do find Westerns very repetitive after so many viewings, and most aren't all that creative in re-working the constants. As far as why "we ladies" might like Westerns - speaking for myself, the primary attraction will always be the cowboys themselves. A compelling actor, got up in those long, lean jeans, and acting all laconic and macho, is usually worth looking at, at least for a few minutes. And I like the horses, too.

[ChiO]

MissG wrote:

Chris, for me, I like them for all the reasons you named PLUS I do not enjoy movies centered on weak characters or stories that are morally ambiguous; westerns are freer of such modern taints, in general. Modern westerns being the exception, which is why I don't care for most of them.

One of the beauties of Westerns is the paradox that, while historically they have a formula, they have proven to be adaptable. My strong preference is for movies "that are morally ambiguous" and have "modern taints", and my favorite Westerns -- Mann, Boetticher, Fuller, Peckinpah, Tourneur -- have that (oh yeah, and THE SEARCHERS and THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE by that director).

Perhaps I don't like real Westerns; those putative Westerns that I like are, for the most part, Westerns because of the setting. Trade the ten-gallon for a fedora, chaps for a trenchcoat, horse for a car, dust for rain and mesas for a skyline and we have a film noir. For me, however, it is that ability for Westerns to encompass such a broad range storytelling (from THE GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY to THE UNFORGIVEN), while still adhering (albeit perhaps only nominally) to a "formula," thereby attracting audiences that like Good Guy-Bad Guy tales and morally ambiguous parables, that has allowed the genre and will continue to allow the genre to survive.

[MissGoddess]

One of the beauties of Westerns is the paradox that, while historically they have a formula, they have proven to be adaptable. My strong preference is for movies "that are morally ambiguous" and have "modern taints", and my favorite Westerns -- Mann, Boetticher, Fuller, Peckinpah, Tourneur -- have that (oh yeah, and THE SEARCHERS and THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE by that director).

And one of life's beautiful paradoxes is that some can see moral ambiguity and modern tainting in movies (The Searchers, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance) where I see none.

[moira finnie]

One of the beauties of Westerns is the paradox that, while historically they have a formula, they have proven to be adaptable. My strong preference is for movies "that are morally ambiguous" and have "modern taints", and my favorite Westerns -- Mann, Boetticher, Fuller, Peckinpah, Tourneur -- have that (oh yeah, and THE SEARCHERS and THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE by that director).

And one of life's beautiful paradoxes is that some can see moral ambiguity and modern tainting in movies (The Searchers, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance) where I see none.

That's funny, 'cause I see Westerns as retelling the same myths and legends that entertained humans gathered around the campfire hearing about Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Perseus, Odysseus and Roland, all of whom could teach us a thing or three about moral ambiguity.

[MissGoddess]

That's funny, 'cause I see Westerns as retelling the same myths and legends that entertained humans gathered around the campfire hearing about Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Perseus, Odysseus and Roland, all of whom could teach us a thing or three about moral ambiguity.

No wonder I passed those over for Nancy Drew, ha!

[moira finnie]

That's funny, 'cause I see Westerns as retelling the same myths and legends that entertained humans gathered around the campfire hearing about Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Perseus, Odysseus and Roland, all of whom could teach us a thing or three about moral ambiguity.

No wonder I passed those over for Nancy Drew, ha!

But Miss G., Nancy Drew is rife with moral ambiguity, (not to mention adolescent angst!!)

[MissGoddess]

Wow, Moira, they sure didn't carry those Nancies in MY library! Or maybe I am just too dumb to pick up those things. I think I'll keep my illusions.

[movieman1957]

The ambiguities that Chio mentioned I think are what have made Eastwood so successful. "Josey Wales", "Pale Rider" and "Unforgiven" are full of Eastwood characters that on the one hand are the hero but on the other have a side you don't want to mess with. Though he seems to have taken "The Searchers" and "Liberty Valance" themes to another level.

There must be room for both because if you look at "Silverado" and maybe "Open Range" and those wildly successful (by TV standards) westerns by Tom Selleck they tend to be more straightforward about the good guys and the bad guys.

If they keep pulling things like "The Assassination of Jesse James..." they may kill it again for theatrical purposes. They have seemed to have sparked an interest again on TV because the Hallmark channel has been churning them out at a pretty good clip.

[MissGoddess]

The ambiguities that Chio mentioned I think are what have made Eastwood so successful. "Josey Wales", "Pale Rider" and "Unforgiven" are full of Eastwood characters that on the one hand are the hero but on the other have a side you don't want to mess with. Though he seems to have taken "The Searchers" and "Liberty Valance" themes to another level.

There must be room for both because if you look at "Silverado" and maybe "Open Range" and those wildly successful (by TV standards) westerns by Tom Selleck they tend to be more straightforward about the good guys and the bad guys.

If they keep pulling things like "The Assassination of Jesse James..." they may kill it again for theatrical purposes. They have seemed to have sparked an interest again on TV because the Hallmark channel has been churning them out at a pretty good clip.

This discussion could be an interesting topic for a whole new thread. Something a little deeper and wider than usual about westerns.