Ox - Bow Incident

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JackFavell
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by JackFavell »

Maybe I phrased that wrong... a bad man, no, but maybe an outlaw? I have always thought that the filmmakers left it open, but now that you say that, you are right. He is the only one of them who uses his brains to try and escape from the situation. By doing that, he actually causes the mob to think he is "sneaky", which fits right in with their prejudiced viewpoint, and I guess I fell right into that thinking, I'm very sorry to say.

Personally, it's tough for me to say who I thought shone more in the film, Dana Andrews or Anthony Quinn. They both were so "on" it hurts. I have nothing but admiration for both actors, and it's a shame it then took Quinn another ten years and a turn as Stanley Kowalski on stage to finally break through as a leading man in the movies.
Last edited by JackFavell on September 27th, 2009, 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

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Hi Movieman...Jackaaaay, I've finally found my way over here. I'll post something very soon. But it's so late or early...and Tyrone Power's coming on shortly in "Abandon Ship!" I've got to really get my thoughts together for the Ox-Bow. It deserves my best effort. Thanxx for gently guiding me here. :-)
"You build my gallows high, baby."

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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by rohanaka »

CineMaven wrote:Hi Movieman...Jackaaaay, I've finally found my way over here. I'll post something very soon. But it's so late or early...and Tyrone Power's coming on shortly in "Abandon Ship!" I've got to really get my thoughts together for the Ox-Bow. It deserves my best effort. Thanxx for gently guiding me here. :-)
So... Miss Maven...

What do you have to say for yourself?? (or rather... for The Ox-Bow??) :D

I watched this film for the very first time last fall (right about this time of year as I recall) and the Grey Guy and I (In the Rambles thread over at TCM) had the chat of our lives on the whole "Black/White/Gray(I mean Grey) themes in this story. There was also a lot of really good commentary going on from a lot of the other 'regular ramblers" too.

I was absolutely blown away by this story... and it was one of my most favorite rambles ever, if memory serves. I think once we got started rambling, I ended up writing about it off and on for days until I am sure folks were SICK of reading my thoughts. HA!! (But it is a VERY chat worthy film... so maybe everybody has forgiven me for being so "loquacious" by now.. ha.)

At any rate, I will avoid my usual tendency to "blab ramble blab" about the Old Ox-Bow HERE (since I don't want to make everyone at SSO sick of me TOO). :D

But I would be really interested in reading YOUR thoughts little lady... when you have the time and inclination, that is.
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by MissGoddess »

I for one didn't get "sick of" your rambles on Ox-Bow, you increased my appreciation
for the movie several times over. It is so relevant to all our lives in so many ways...
"There's only one thing that can kill the movies, and that's education."
-- Will Rogers
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JackFavell
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by JackFavell »

I thought that ramble ended far too quick... I certainly enjoyed it very much. But I too would love to hear CM's thoughts, and any more of yours, Ro. :D
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by rohanaka »

You gals are being nicer to me than I deserve. I DID go on and on.... and on (likely far too long) way back then as I recall... trust me...ha. I just get so doggone wrapped up in stories like that. I am far too much of a "This is what I saw and this is what I think about it" kinda gal. ha.

Your memory of the length of my blabbing has likely been clouded by.... all the OTHER blabbing I have done in the last year...ha. It just never seems to stop, does it??? ha.

Ms Maven????????????? Paging Ms Maven.....
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

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I wish I had the gift of explaining the depth of a character, or plot as some of you do, and I never tire of reading a good analysis. Often by reading somebodys' post I see things I hadn't noticed before, and I can look for them the next time I watch. That's the nice thing about this site. You are not hampered by posting ONLY about TCM. Here we include any other channels that show movies, without feeling contrary to our host. Also, being in the first group of transfers to this site, I can safely say I have never seen any criticisms for length or depth of a post. Keep up the good work.
.
Anne


***********************************************************************
* * * * * * * * What is past is prologue. * * * * * * * *

]***********************************************************************
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

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"But I would be really interested in reading YOUR thoughts little lady... when you have the time and inclination, that is." - rohanaka.

Umm...err..rummm... <GULP>. I've got to see the movie again and make notes. When it was recently aired I was sitting there...stunned. Barnes & Noble...I'm-a-comin'.
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

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Ok… I just can’t contain myself anymore..ha. I have to blab… (mrsl… you will likely end up revising your statement about not minding long posts…ha) So… while we are waiting on Ms Maven.. if it is ok… I will jabber for a bit.

Now, as I said, it has been a year since I watched this film and as much as I want to go back and watch it all again, It will have to wait until I have a bit more time. So (at least for now) I have gone back in to my post from TCM and pulled out my opening ramble on this film because I wanted to refresh my memory. And if you will forgive me the arrogance of quoting myself, I have taken my post from there and “tweaked” it a bit for this conversation here just to give folks a feel for how MUCH I really liked this movie.

Because although it has been a YEAR since last I watched this film, my FEELINGS about it all run as deep (if not deeper) as they did when I first saw it way back those many months ago.
So here is roughly what I said over yonder at TCM (with a few minor changes thrown in for this conversation as well)

Before I get too far along with this...let me first say ...It will be hard to avoid SPOILERS when talking about this movie, so anyone who doesn't want to "read all about it"...take note.

Now I just have to just say “Wow, watta movie” . But really that should be, “Wow, watta story”. There are several folks I have chatted with over time that have said they have this film on their most favorite western list, (I would have to count myself among them now) but as others have mentioned here, this film doesn't have to be a "western" per se, as it is more about the "incident and what caused it" and those sorts of things go beyond a certain time or place.

But the old west really does fit w/ the themes in this tale because law and justice were certainly more "home style" back then when everyone carried their own little "peacemaker" to help them keep the peace. And I bet the back woods and empty fields and deserts of the American west are filled w/ the remains of plenty of Larry Kincaids and likely many more of the Donald Martins and his unfortunate traveling companions.

What I really looked for the most in this story was a point. WHY did these folks just suddenly decide to take the law into their own hands? WHY were they so quick to demand justice based on one second hand accounting of certain events that may not have been fully understood yet? And WHY were there so few present who wanted to stand up and perhaps act as a voice of reason? And when that voice came...in the form of an old man and a "weak willed" politician, WHY did so few people care to listen?

I think the answer to all this is found in a common problem we have in today's society as well (as April already mentioned) . And my husband gets the credit for this next thought here, because he says this all the time...The reason everyone acted in such haste and with such poor judgment is that they did not want to "confuse the issue with the facts".

They did not want to believe or be bothered with anyone else's opinion but their own once they made up their minds. And they were easily led along a path they might not normally have chosen had they stopped and thought before they acted. And that path not only led to the deaths of three innocent men, but also drove a fourth guilty man to suicide, left an innocent family without a husband and father, and ruined the lives of all the willing participants who now are left to bear the guilt of their own foolish actions. (Forgive the run on sentence there)

The movie 12 Angry Men (ha, another Fonda movie) came to mind for me a bit in this film when Davies asked for a vote and only 7 stood up to wait. Because it just seemed very “Angry Men-ish” how the rest stuck by their convictions even though they all knew there could be reason to wait...again...not wanting to be confused with the facts.

And incidentally, this has to be the best acting I can ever recall from Fonda, though I admit I was not a huge fan of his before I saw this movie. But this film REALLY turned the tide for me with him. Boy does he stand out. At one point (when he is waiting outside in the middle of the night in the cold talking to Harry Morgan--who was also terrific by the way) he virtually seethes. And you can just see it coming out of him as he is talking about how disgusted he is with all the blowhard "leaders" they are following after in this so-called pursuit of justice.

And while I admit there are numerous elements of gray (or is it "grey"? ) with his character, it turns out he is far more aware of the “black and white” of things than one might think as he repeatedly stands w/ Davies to try to calm folks down . And he also makes a very heroic attempt near the end to put a stop to the whole thing.

And then at the very end of the story.... Well, I can only say I wish this short film had been a lot longer (at least another hour) because I for one would have loved to see him and Morgan go on to both become better men as they moved in and helped that family face the future w/out their husband and father. But that is likely the wife and mother in me talking.

At any rate, I really liked the part where he is reading the letter to Morgan and all you can see is his mouth and Morgan's eyes...as if the words he is reading are flowing from his lips and sinking into Morgan's brain. Very interesting perspective.

Other stand out performances in this film would have to be Harry Davenport...though I must admit I suddenly had a moment where I wanted to break out singing "Meet Me in St. Louis".(ha) And the guy who played "Sparks"...I looked him up way back when I first saw this film...Leigh Whipper. What a terrific job and what a great character... "He's kiddin' you Sparks." "I know but he might be accidentally right."

The only two things that I would have "changed" about this film (other than the ending that I wanted to see continued) would be the music (not too imaginative...maybe the director was still thinking of The Grapes of Wrath when he went w/ Red River Valley so often) and the character of Fonda's old girlfriend....what was that all about? It didn't have to be a part of the action of the story...it could easily have been included as background through more conversation than just the bit that was discussed at the beginning. I saw that whole piece as a bit of a distraction, but it did not last long, so I am not really complaining. Maybe others have a different take on that.

OK, so now you know why I have said this film makes me want to blab on and on, (ha) as I am sure I went much longer than I should. (I know---and after I already said shouldn't) Ha. But I think this is a film that really does lend itself to long chats like this because it is so thought provoking and it really invites the viewer to just sink in and mull everything over for some time to come, (long after the story is through.)

At any rate, I hope this all made sense. And thanks very much, folks, for putting up w/ my ramblings here (in this non rambles thread). This movie is just too special to me to not chat about it again… in fact… I am going to go back to the library and check it out again now because I want to see it all the more just for having talked about it here. So even though I said I was “too busy”, I will have to make the time, as I am sure once Miss Maven chimes in (and any others who may be interested in resuming this chat) there will be plenty more to think on and discuss.

Thanks again for letting me jabber.
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JackFavell
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by JackFavell »

Nice ramblin there, Miss Peacemaker....

I especially liked what you said about the words coming from Fonda's mouth into Morgan's brain.... What a moment that is, and how hard was it for Morgan to have that extreme closeup on his reactions?

Your post made me wonder what happened to the town after this? I picture it drying up, and becoming a ghost town, as the men slowly left. Another set of lives affected by that fateful event.

This film is on Netflix as well, if anyone wants to watch it that way.
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by movieman1957 »

Kathy:

You need to do more of this here. Thanks for a great read.

You mentioned about more people not standing up for doing what should be the right thing. In many westerns a mob takes on a personality of its own. It becomes bigger than the people in it. There are different kinds though. There is the righteous mob where they are convinced, as here, that they are right and there is nothing that will change their mind. To disagree with the mob is to be thought weak. Then there is a more frenzied mob. This is one that usually gets stirred up by one or two people. Others get caught up in it and they almost go without thinking.

Differentiate this one with the one in "The Tin Star" and even "Wyatt Earp." Fonda tells Perkins in "The Tin Star" that he doesn't have to fight the whole group, only its leader. Get him to back down and the rest will also. The righteous ones all have a little nerve. They are harder to overcome because those you have to beat the crowd. The feed off of each other's anger.

I think even a mob like that in "To Kill A Mockingbird" is more the frenzied kind. Though it takes a little girl to disarm them, so to speak, I am not convinced they would have overrun Atticus. The difference between the two is the Atticus is the respected member of the town where Fonda and Morgan are basically strangers and carry no weight.

Does that make any sense? It's late.
Chris

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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by CineMaven »

I've just bought "The Ox-Bow Incident" and hope to contribute intelligently...and emotionally to the discussion.

Hmmm...can we all agree on thing: They don't make 'em like this anymore.
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JackFavell
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

Post by JackFavell »

Not too many studios would have taken that project on, even back then. It's a Fox production, isn't it? They were so bold and thoughtful at that studio, heading into the post war era. We really are lucky that they were around to make those films.
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Re: Ox - Bow Incident

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I've just finished watching the movie this morning. I've got to put my jumbled notes and jumbled thoughts together to write something coherent before this weekend is up. All I know is that there were tears in my eyes when Dana Andrew's character is lifted up onto his horse and he says: "Miriam."

I've never seen Dana Andrews that emotional in his career ever again.
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The Ox - Bow Incident

Post by CineMaven »

I thought that ramble ended far too quick... I certainly enjoyed it very much. But I too would love to hear CM's thoughts... - JackFavell.

Ms Maven????????????? Paging Ms Maven... - rohanaka .


Yooo-hooo ladies. I'm here...and I'm rambling...boy am I ever rambling:

AN IMMOVABLE OBJECT MEETS AN IRRESISTIBLE FORCE: ”THE OX-BOW INCIDENT” ( 1943 )

Directed by WILLIAM WELLMAN

”MIRIAM.”

I recently watched ”The Ox-Bow Incident” and then watched it again. This film is mighty powerful stuff.

JUSTICE vs. VENGEANCE /THE GROUP vs THE INDIVIDUAL. It is 1885 in Nevada. Here you have three factions racing hellbent towards each other to make the most tragic of perfect storms:

A. The Mob
B. The Law
C. The Rustlers

Neutrality gets a bit of a beat down too in this tale. Rancher Larry Kincaid (FRANK ORTH) has been shot in the head and rustlers have stolen his cattle. This is the impetus for the events that unfold. Kincaid’s best and childhood friend, played by gangster bad-guy MARC LAWRENCE, is angry and wants to catch the Rustlers. Inside the posse are followers and instigators and thrill seekers.

THE MOB: ( THE GROUP )

The posse quickly turns into a Mob. It doesn’t take much for this to happen. First off, they are not sworn in by a duly appointed representative of the law. Deputy Mapes might as well have been played by the swarthy Steve Cochran for all the good he does. Everyone’s blood is boiling, there’s been some drinking and there seems to be nothing else to do in this town. When justice is abandoned and vengeance sets in...you’ve just gone from possee to mob.

There’s one really hateful S.O.B. in this mob named Smith (played by PAUL HURST). He is downright giddy about the proceedings. HE is the first to mention that they ought to just go and get these Rustlers. He occasionally takes a rope and pretends to put it around his neck, mocking the ‘necktie party’ to come. Out of everyone, I really despised his hateful glee. When the saloon keeper offers the mob a drink in an effort to get them to wait for the law, the first one up the steps is Smith (check it out). But he stops dead in his tracks when the saloon keeper says that the drinks will not be unlimited.

The mob moves as a unit...or should I say an organism; like a slimy, yellow-bellied blob monster. When Gil’s partner is shot, they surround the wounded man. When an escaping Rustler is shot, he is surrounded to watch how he takes a bullet out of his leg. This is like a live inter-active movie to this group.

The bloodlust of the group is palpable. When they catch up to the Rustlers, I imagine every man in that mob is aroused at the prospect of engineering and watching the hangings, just as much as the men were in Jodie Foster’s movie, “The Accused.” They’re instigating things and watching them play out. And the one woman with them? Well she is played by the great JANE DARWELL. Heavy-set, uncouth, being part of this mob is probably the only thrill her character, Jenny Grier, has had in a very long, very long time. She is no longer a viable object of desire. It’s sickly funny to see her paired off with Smith, giggling on the side like deadly mischievous school children. I would have gladly shot them myself.

But there was a self-proclaimed leader of the mob; mobs need leaders. One, Major Tetley played with chilling accuracy by FRANK CONROY filled the vacuum and moved right in. What did we used to say as kids: ”Who died and made you King?!” I watched him throughout. Barking out orders, standing rigid...
ramrod straight in that Confederate uniform that looked a little too tight. 1885, the Civil War was some twenty years before. And the look of hateful disappointment, no wait... contempt, for his son. Can anyone spell ‘self-loathing’? He thwarts every plea to wait for the Law. He needs this...wants this to happen... But he’s even worse. This obstinate b*stard has another agenda that he uses the mob to satisfy that agenda. Making a MAN of his son.


THE LAW

The one lone voice of reason is Arthur Davies. He is played by the wonderful HARRY DAVENPORT. I love his soft, wispy, white hair and whiskers. I love the flat affect of his voice. He tries to stop the mob. He sends Gil Carter for the Judge, since the Sheriff is out of town. He doesn’t mind a posse, but he knows things are spiraling quickly out of control. When he sends Gil to get the Judge, he warns him NOT to talk in front of the Deputy (the Steve Cochran look-a-like). I guess he knew what kind of man the Deputy was. And it wasn’t the good kind.

But the Law kind of fails Society too. The Judge tries to petulantly weasel out of its responsibility, (”Doggone it, it’s the Sheriff’s job, not mine!) He reluctantly goes to face the mob and half-heartedly gives them a speech.

Davies still tries to reach Farnley and persuade him not to go off half-cocked. But I’m afraid he’s fully cocked:

”Yeah, I know who’s going to take care of it. ME! I tell you now, whoever shot Larry Kincaid ain’t coming back here for you to fuddle with your lawyer’s tricks for six months, then be led off because Davies and some other whining old woman claim he ain’t bad at heart. Kincaid didn’t have six months to decide if he wanted to die.”

Uh...I’d say his position is pretty clear. And things haven’t changed too much these days.

If this is going to be the way it’s going to be, the Law invites Spirituality in to the mix. I love the way Sparks was used in this film. LEIGH WHIPPER portrays Sparks. Looking at his bio in imdb, the actor was born in 1876 in South Carolina. I daresay he probably has witnessed some lynchings in his own life. It was good to see a person of color represented in the late 19th century. Wellman had him treated with respect. This film was made in 1943. He wasn’t tap dancing or speaking broken English or mugging for the camera showing 65 teeth in his mouth. He represented some sort of religion, spirituality. And Lord knows that whole group was going to need prayer.

The mob is very clear on what it’s going to do. It kind of hurt me to see the old man (Davenport) run a little ways down the street, calling after the Mob. As the mob rides off, The Law rides off after them in an attempt to keep some semblance of law and order within the group. Even with the Rustlers captured...The Law keeps on pitching. Davies even tries to use the Rustler’s letter to dissuade the mob from its inexorable mission.

He will fail.


THE RUSTLERS: ( THE INDIVIDUAL )

Oh, what a motley crue this doomed trio is. One arrogant, one drunk and one sincere. It was sad to see the realization wash over their faces when they knew where this was heading; they were going to be hanged. It was interesting to watch how they each handled this realization. The old man was sputtering. He didn’t know what the heck was going on. They could’ve really let this old coot go.

But they didn’t.

The arrogant man made me sit up and take notice. Yeah, he’s full of machismo. But of course, he is Latino. Juan Martinez, is played by the towering ANTHNY QUINN near the beginning of his career. HE looks at his accusers with contempt. HE is not trying to rationalize and reason with this den of vultures. HE is not going down without a fight. He patently is NOT going to talk. I’m sure the mob looked down on him b’cuz they thought of him as a dirty Mexican. When Jenny Grier realizes he talks English or as she says:

”So, he speaks American.”

Martinez replies:

”And ten other languages my dear. I don’t tell anything I want to in any of them!”

When he said he could speak in ten languages, I laughed! NOW who is the Savage?? He cleans out his own leg wound (!) commenting to Major Tetley about his son: ”He’s very polite, but he’s no stomach for blood, ey?” That sent a dagger through Tetley’s heart. Martinez throws the knife at Farnley’s feet. He was not going down without a fight. I loved him.

The kindly man of the bunch was DANA ANDREWS as Don Martin. He broke my heart.

”Speak up man. You’re taking it like a woman,” says Maj. Tetley.

And one time, Wellman doesn’t even show the person who delivers her line off-camera:

”Keep your chin up. You can only die once, son.”

How cruelly consoling!

The Rustler’s goal is to slow things down:

MARTIN: ”Listen, why don’t you stop this farce and take us in if you think we had anything to do with it?”

But the mob’s goal is to speed things up:

FARNLEY: ”You want time and the Sheriff to get here and the job not done?”

The Law now speaks with resignation:

DAVIES: ”They won’t come in time.”

TETLEY: ”I believe you’re right, Mr. Davies, though I doubt if you want to be.”


But the Mob has one shred of pity for poor Don when he begs:

”I’ve got to write a letter. If you’re human at all, you’ll give me time to write a letter!!”

The Mob will wait to hang them, especially realizing that the Sheriff won’t come in time. The vulturous mob needs to eat and raids the Rustlers’ knapsack for food. So Don writes, the old man is clueless and Martinez eats a hearty meal.

Mr. Davies (DAVENPORT) keeps quietly pitching, trying to get someone to read Don’s letter so they can SEE his innocence. He’s still trying to stop them...to get them to wait for the Law. No one will read it; not even Gil Carter.

”Won’t you even read it? Is it because you’ve made up your mind or because you believe everybody else has and you’re afraid to stand up for what you feel is right?”

Looks like the Law is trying to get some men on its side like Will Kane in “HIGH NOON.”

The individual must cry out and rail against the tide...against the wind, even if it means getting swept away. Even if it means drowning. Don and Mr. Davies have that in common. These two lone men try to stop the inevitable. Don wants to survive to go home to his family. Mr. Davies wants the Law to survive.

But even in the midst of the inevitable, Don Martin STILL has the wherewithal to speak up for his dignity. Where Martinez willfully would not speak, Don Martin speaks volumes. I love how Don got in their faces yelling:

”What right have you got to show my letter...All I asked you to do is make sure it was delivered...It’s enough to be hanged by a bunch of bullying outlaws without having your private thoughts handed around to them as a joke...I don’t care what you were doing. I didn’t write that letter to be passed around. It’s none of these murderers’ business...give me my letter!!”

You know what I was thinking...not only was he to be hanged, but he was to be humiliated by being watched. I’m telling you, there’s something voyeuristic about this lynch mob thing.

There IS another component to the symbiotic relationship between lynch mob and rustlers.

THE INNOCENT BYSTANDER: ( NEUTRALITY )

HENRY FONDA and sidekick HENRY MORGAN are innocent bystanders Gil Carter and Art Croft who get willingly swept up by the tide of the mob. They feel they have no choice. In fact, Art lets Gil know that if they make too much of a fuss, there may be a noose around their necks. Gil doesn’t approve but he keeps a watchful eye on things. His inactivity...is he us, the audience...watching events at a safe dark distance?? When sides have to finally be chosen, Sharpe is he first man who crosses over wanting no part of this decision to hang these men...six other men stand with him. Interesting and wonderful thoughts went through my head as I thought of the Jim Crow South. I’ll love William Wellman forever for that image.

I know you’ve all talked this movie inside out and I’m a Johnny-Come-Lately here. But I do hope I’m adding something constructive to the discussion. I won’t beat too much of a dead horse talking about Fonda’s portrayal. Let me just say he was wonderful, as was Henry ”Dragnet” “MASH” Morgan. Fonda’s silent meeting with ex girlfriend played by MARY BETH HUGHES was poignant. They neither one of them could speak becuz they were being watched by the mob and her husband. Brave man, that husband of hers, as he faced the mob, pointedly Fonda. The mob (mostly men mind you) “knew” his wife very well. But he was strong and self-assured when he quietly let them know that things have changed; and there are boundaries.

Gil can take it no more when he sees Don struck while his hands are behind his back. He barrels into the attacker and the mob starts to fight each other. Gil has taken a stand. But too late. Tetley fights for order before the hanging. He needs this to happen. After all, he knows there is something “weak” about himself that he loathes sooooooooooooooooooo much, he must beat it out of his son. Martinez picked up on it. And Tetley even says it aloud to his son:

”I’ll have no female boys bearing my name. You’ll do your part, say nothing more!”

I suspect he was really talking to himself. The worse thing a man could be in the wild wild west...is less than a man.

Yes, yes...Gil reading the letter was magnificently read and shot. But you know what shot I liked even better? It was when the group was riding away from the scene of the crime...THEIR crime. As the horses slowly saunter up the hill around the mountain, Gil (FONDA) takes one last look at the three men. And he shudders and shakes his head. THAT I liked better.

"THE OX-BOW INCIDENT" was gently relentless and beautifully performed. Everyone executed their parts perfectly. There was not one false note. When the mob rides up into the mountains, you see their horses get swallowed up by the dust they make. There is streams of light coming through the trees when Martinez confesses. Not too much of the John Ford touch with the scenery. But the message was powerful.

Now that I’ve posted this. I can safely read everyone's rambles here and at TCM City about this great movie. I didn’t want to be unduly influenced by the great writing submitted. But I guess I needn’t have worried. We probably all agree to the same thing: when you get right down to it, ”The Ox-Bow Incident” is one of the most stunning and devastating indictments against taking the law into one’s own hands.
"You build my gallows high, baby."

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