Susan Sontag? Oh -- PUL-LEEZE! "Mother of Camp," ChiO? Mother of Wet Blankets is more like it.
Just because Streaky Sue decided to be an ever-so-daring academic and write about camp, doesn't make her right; her work is her opinion, and I would never have described her as a barrel of laughs.
A work should not be self-consciously camp to be considered camp? Well, that would preclude a helluvalotta works that positively scream "CAMP," and inded are the campiest of camp. How about everything Charles Busch has done? Or John Waters? Or the Monty Python troupe?
There's very little in Sontag's attempt to over-analyze the ephemeral that I'd agree with. Camp is camp, just like funny is funny. Some things just can't be parsed to death, lest you take all the fun out of them.
JOHNNY GUITAR. What a joke!!!
Sontag not fun? Now I have to re-evaluate my life.
"Her work is her opinion"? Of course. My reason for citing her was twofold: (1) if not the first to discuss Camp in a reasonably cogent fashion, her article popularized (there's a musical -- Sontag: The Popularizer) critical discussion of the concept; and, (2) to come to some common ground as to the meaning of "Camp" so that a discussion can be had inasmuch as discussion about any concept is futile if there is no common acceptance of the concept's meaning. Gotta start somewhere and that's where I started.
"Funny is funny"? I wish. Then I could enjoy Buster Keaton, who I generally find unfunny. Maybe it's having spent a working lifetime parsing legislation and its history for meaning, but I actually enjoy parsing out why Buster Keaton usually leaves me, at most, weakly smiling while I howl at Charlie Chaplin (and three of the Marx Brothers and Ernie Kovacs and Jonathan Winters). Trying to understand why I like X and not Y usually opens me up to enjoying Y (at least a little bit more) while not diminishing my enjoyment of X.
What you might call self-conscious Camp, I might call parody or kitsch (which doesn't mean I don't like it -- my life is a parody).
Blah, blah, blah. Now for an important philosphical discussion: Why Timothy Carey is a great actor, but Kirk Douglas merely mugs and Gregory Peck is too mannered?
"Her work is her opinion"? Of course. My reason for citing her was twofold: (1) if not the first to discuss Camp in a reasonably cogent fashion, her article popularized (there's a musical -- Sontag: The Popularizer) critical discussion of the concept; and, (2) to come to some common ground as to the meaning of "Camp" so that a discussion can be had inasmuch as discussion about any concept is futile if there is no common acceptance of the concept's meaning. Gotta start somewhere and that's where I started.
"Funny is funny"? I wish. Then I could enjoy Buster Keaton, who I generally find unfunny. Maybe it's having spent a working lifetime parsing legislation and its history for meaning, but I actually enjoy parsing out why Buster Keaton usually leaves me, at most, weakly smiling while I howl at Charlie Chaplin (and three of the Marx Brothers and Ernie Kovacs and Jonathan Winters). Trying to understand why I like X and not Y usually opens me up to enjoying Y (at least a little bit more) while not diminishing my enjoyment of X.
What you might call self-conscious Camp, I might call parody or kitsch (which doesn't mean I don't like it -- my life is a parody).
Blah, blah, blah. Now for an important philosphical discussion: Why Timothy Carey is a great actor, but Kirk Douglas merely mugs and Gregory Peck is too mannered?
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
-
jdb1
Really, ChiO, I don't see how anyone can engage in any kind of colloquy regarding an Immutable Essence of the Universe such as Tim Carey. I've seen Jesuits' heads explode when they try to debate those merits because, of course, there's nothing to debate. It's like trying to count angels dancing, on one hand clapping, in Nirvana. Once you've tasted of that ambrosia, you can never go back to the Bud Lite of those other mugs you mentioned. Why hasn't the rest of the world learned it yet?
By the way, I should have clarified my "funny is funny" remark: funny is funny, the way that Sontag is insightful -- it's in the eye of the beholder. To my mind, deconstructionists like Sontag are just the type who want to control everything -- "I'll tell you what's funny," they say, "and you'll laugh, because I say it's now OK to laugh." I think the Camp phenomenon is so "anti" to that way of thinking. The desire to control such an antic concept is probably why she chose it as a topic.
Which, of course, brings us back to Johnny Guitar, the Old West Through the Looking Glass. So many things in this movie are seemingly backwards in terms of Westerns convention, it's no wonder so many people hate it. I think that's what makes it interesting, and possibly great -- there aren't many Westerns that flout convention, and certainly very few that can spark such differences of opinion. Personally, I don't love it; but then, I don't hate it, either.
By the way, I should have clarified my "funny is funny" remark: funny is funny, the way that Sontag is insightful -- it's in the eye of the beholder. To my mind, deconstructionists like Sontag are just the type who want to control everything -- "I'll tell you what's funny," they say, "and you'll laugh, because I say it's now OK to laugh." I think the Camp phenomenon is so "anti" to that way of thinking. The desire to control such an antic concept is probably why she chose it as a topic.
Which, of course, brings us back to Johnny Guitar, the Old West Through the Looking Glass. So many things in this movie are seemingly backwards in terms of Westerns convention, it's no wonder so many people hate it. I think that's what makes it interesting, and possibly great -- there aren't many Westerns that flout convention, and certainly very few that can spark such differences of opinion. Personally, I don't love it; but then, I don't hate it, either.
Pause for Clarity:
I never said I HATED Johnny Guitar, I called it silly, which it is. It definitely is NOT Great, it is a Western Dr. Strangelove, or The Russians are Coming, The Russians are Coming, or any other silly little film that makes fun of its own genre. If any of those people were acting for real, they should have been arrested for forgery.
That film was made as a tongue in cheek (in more ways than one), serio-comedy, and how anyone finds serious merit in it is beyond me.
But . . . . . . TO EACH HIS OWN, RIGHT?!!??!
Anne
I never said I HATED Johnny Guitar, I called it silly, which it is. It definitely is NOT Great, it is a Western Dr. Strangelove, or The Russians are Coming, The Russians are Coming, or any other silly little film that makes fun of its own genre. If any of those people were acting for real, they should have been arrested for forgery.
That film was made as a tongue in cheek (in more ways than one), serio-comedy, and how anyone finds serious merit in it is beyond me.
But . . . . . . TO EACH HIS OWN, RIGHT?!!??!
Anne
Anne
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Further clarification:
1. JOHNNY GUITAR is NOT silly.
2. It definitely IS great.
3. DR. STRANGELOVE is NOT a silly little film either. It's a big, fat serious film, in fact.
4. JOHNNY GUITAR does NOT make fun of its own genre.
5. The actors in JOHNNY GUITAR were acting for real.
6. JOHNNY GUITAR was most certainly NOT made tongue-in-cheek.
7. A great many people find serious merit in JOHNNY GUITAR.
8. And yes, to each their own.
1. JOHNNY GUITAR is NOT silly.
2. It definitely IS great.
3. DR. STRANGELOVE is NOT a silly little film either. It's a big, fat serious film, in fact.
4. JOHNNY GUITAR does NOT make fun of its own genre.
5. The actors in JOHNNY GUITAR were acting for real.
6. JOHNNY GUITAR was most certainly NOT made tongue-in-cheek.
7. A great many people find serious merit in JOHNNY GUITAR.
8. And yes, to each their own.
Last edited by Dewey1960 on April 3rd, 2008, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jdb1 said:
Now that's Camp...or at least very funny.
(re: Timothy Carey as an Immutable Essence of the Universe, or IEU as I will hereinafter refer to him).I've seen Jesuits' heads explode when they try to debate those merits....
Now that's Camp...or at least very funny.
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
Have really enjoyed these pejorative exchanges, typed with such stunning civility and erudition it intimidates the casual, undereducated, classic movie fan who, humbly armed with his trusty Webster's 1961 Edition of the New Collegiate Dictionary, wades in, caution denied, to say a few words.
Except for alluding to some off-topic nonsense as regards persons who share a common goal or standing on a subject (i.e., political camp) the aforementioned Collegiate Dictionary otherwise offers nothing more instructive than a location that once having reached I erect my tent. Nestled in the tent now, I peruse the inside of the Collegiate's cover to find therein written that except for some minor revisions it's the same wonderful volume it was when published in 1910. This being said, I feel not nearly so handicapped here at my new message board as I was at my old. Where, owing to my underdeveloped computer multi-tasking skills, I found it excruciatingly difficult to type feverishly with both hands while, for my own protection, trying to load my grandfather's 22-short rifle. Excuse me now while I gingerly put away my Collegiate as I have perhaps damaged both threads that continue to hold it together.
hal
Please pardon my attempt at levity...but the lack of reference in my dictionary to the word central to the discussion was just too funny not to share.
Except for alluding to some off-topic nonsense as regards persons who share a common goal or standing on a subject (i.e., political camp) the aforementioned Collegiate Dictionary otherwise offers nothing more instructive than a location that once having reached I erect my tent. Nestled in the tent now, I peruse the inside of the Collegiate's cover to find therein written that except for some minor revisions it's the same wonderful volume it was when published in 1910. This being said, I feel not nearly so handicapped here at my new message board as I was at my old. Where, owing to my underdeveloped computer multi-tasking skills, I found it excruciatingly difficult to type feverishly with both hands while, for my own protection, trying to load my grandfather's 22-short rifle. Excuse me now while I gingerly put away my Collegiate as I have perhaps damaged both threads that continue to hold it together.
hal
Please pardon my attempt at levity...but the lack of reference in my dictionary to the word central to the discussion was just too funny not to share.
halcarter said:
As to "civility", let's try to keep that to a minimum.
Not to worry. "Deconstructionist" isn't in mine. But, as the Mad Hatter (or was it Susan Sontag?) said: A word means what I say it means -- nothing more, nothing less. Or something like that.the lack of reference in my dictionary to the word central to the discussion was just too funny not to share.
As to "civility", let's try to keep that to a minimum.
Everyday people...that's what's wrong with the world. -- Morgan Morgan
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
I love movies. But don't get me wrong. I hate Hollywood. -- Orson Welles
Movies can only go forward in spite of the motion picture industry. -- Orson Welles
-
jdb1
I was remembering last night that in The Big Clock (late 1940s) , which I read recently, Earl Janoth's mistress, Pauline, accuses him and his assistant Steve of "camping around." She doesn't mean out in the wilderness.
It's not surprising that dictionaries ignore this sense of the word "camp," or give it a highly biased type of definition Up until recent times, it was a pretty obscure concept, and used by only a small and generally suppressed group of people. I haven't yet consulted the big Oxford - have to go to the library for that.
It's not surprising that dictionaries ignore this sense of the word "camp," or give it a highly biased type of definition Up until recent times, it was a pretty obscure concept, and used by only a small and generally suppressed group of people. I haven't yet consulted the big Oxford - have to go to the library for that.
Re: JOHNNY GUITAR. What a joke!!!
Up there in my top ten westerns, JOHNNY GUITAR appeals to me for a lot of different reasons. Visually it is stunning . Take Vienna's saloon and that red brick back wall with the piano in front of it. There must be hundreds of saloons in westerns but this is my favorite .
I love the cast right down to Royal Dano and John Carradine , Rhys Williams and the villainous Ernest Borgnine. Most of the characters have colourful names and I like that too.
Ann Harding quoted the dialogue from that love scene between Joan Crawford and Sterling Hayden. Magic!
I take it for what it is, a western made by Nicholas Ray, so it was going to be different. I don't analyse it, but, boy ,do I enjoy watching it every so often.
I love the cast right down to Royal Dano and John Carradine , Rhys Williams and the villainous Ernest Borgnine. Most of the characters have colourful names and I like that too.
Ann Harding quoted the dialogue from that love scene between Joan Crawford and Sterling Hayden. Magic!
I take it for what it is, a western made by Nicholas Ray, so it was going to be different. I don't analyse it, but, boy ,do I enjoy watching it every so often.