Buster Keaton

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charliechaplinfan
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Re: Buster Keaton

Post by charliechaplinfan »

Jon, I do agree with you, I love stunts in silent comedy, Chaplin didn't rely on them much, he didn't have too, Safety Last contains some breathe taking footage however the character isn't an altogether pleasant one, I also like the footage of the store, I just love silent movies that feature the inside of stores. That is my problem in a nutshell with most of Lloyd's films, I don't like his character, funny I hadn't noticed it as much in Safety Last.

As for Keaton, I'm almost ashamed to admit that my favorite of his movies is The Cameraman, it's pitch perfect, never misses a beat and he's romantic too. I have a soft spot for Spite Marriage too, especially the scene of the stage.
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movieman1957
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Re: Buster Keaton

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No reason to be ashamed of "The Cameraman." It's a great film.
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JackFavell
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Re: Buster Keaton

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I am really enjoying this thread! I am a huge Keaton fan, and Chaplin too. Lloyd really has never done much for me, and I think the reason is the one you wrote about.

Last year when they showed many of the Harold Lloyd films, the one that caught my attention was Doctor Jack, and though I had no idea why, I really liked it, and liked him for the first time. His goodness lent depth to the character.
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Re: Buster Keaton

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jondaris wrote:
charliechaplinfan wrote:I liked some of Hot Water and like Safety Last, who couldn't appreciate Safety Last?
I didn't like it much at all -- in fact, it put me off Lloyd for a long time.

Here's part of a review I wrote on imdb years ago:
Lloyd had an understanding of gags, and the physical prowess to pull them off, but his character, despite his innocent look, was opportunistic and lacking the moral weight of Chaplin or Keaton.

In "Safety Last," Lloyd plays a young man who is leaving for the big city to make it big; his girlfriend, played by his wife Mildred Davis, has told him that she expects him to become successful. Upon arrival, he writes daily letters home telling her of his big business deals. In the meantime, he is ducking the landlady (the scene where he and his roommate hide from her was great) and slaving as a lowly department store clerk. The gags in the store, where he hides his late arrival from his boss and deals with a mob of ladies attempting to buy fabric, are actually the funniest part of the film.

Eventually his girlfriend shows up in town unannounced, and he is forced to play the part of the big shot while hiding his lowly position from her. In an attempt to get the money he needs to buy a house, he ends up climbing a 12 story building, dealing with pigeons, police and gunfire along the way.

There are some very funny moments in the film, but Lloyd's lack of a moral center keep it from achieving true greatness. In one scene, he slips a dollar into a trash can as a bribe to an office boy to play along with his big-shot deception; a second later, he steals it back. It's a funny gag, but compare it to Keaton's "Sherlock Jr.," where he not only returns a lost dollar but ends up giving away his own money to a second woman looking for a lost bill. Keaton manages to be funny and create sympathy for his character simultaneously.

This lack of sympathy works against Lloyd in the film's climax, when he makes his climb up the building. What should be breathtakingly suspenseful, with the gags serving as a tension-breaker, comes off as merely mechanical. Because there has been no connection with the audience, the possibility of him falling almost seems like a just reward for his lying and opportunism. When Keaton finds himself in danger, as in the spectacular waterfall scene in "Our Hospitality," his basic decency adds moral weight to the suspense that's totally lacking from Lloyd's work.

In all, while Lloyd manages to be funny and entertaining, it's impossible to love him. He has a real understanding of pulling off a gag, but almost none of making a movie work.
Interesting review, but I must confess I don't see how Lloyd's character had less moral weight than either Keaton or Chaplin, unless that dollar gag in Safety Last is the only way Lloyd's character is defined. But if so, then we can apply the same thing to Chaplin, using nearly a similar gag in The Immigrant, where he essentially cheats Eric Campbell out of a meal. In The Kid, Chaplin has Coogan break windows so the Tramp can fix them…for a fee. Sure, it's funny (really funny) and perhaps we sympathize, but moral center? Sure, the way it's presented, but not so much if it's my window being smashed.

I can understand not liking Lloyd's character or his comedy. But you can't define him by one gag. If you could, where's Keaton's moral center when he pockets the contents of the guy's wallet in Cops?
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movieman1957
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Re: Buster Keaton

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JackFavell wrote:I am really enjoying this thread! I am a huge Keaton fan, and Chaplin too. Lloyd really has never done much for me, and I think the reason is the one you wrote about.

Last year when they showed many of the Harold Lloyd films, the one that caught my attention was Doctor Jack, and though I had no idea why, I really liked it, and liked him for the first time. His goodness lent depth to the character.
"Grandma's Boy" was shown about the same time and that one may appeal to you as well.
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Re: Buster Keaton

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Thanks Chris! I'll give it a try.

I have to admit, the ploy they use in avoiding the landlady in SL is brilliant. It's a great gag.
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Re: Buster Keaton

Post by MichiganJ »

A few other character-driven Lloyd films that I'd recommend are Girl Shy and The Kid Brother.

Something interesting, to me at least, about Safety Last, is that the climbing sequence was filmed before there was a script. Knowing that, the genius of Safety Last is all the more justified because what Lloyd and his writers came up with works perfectly.  Hackneyed though it is, "the boy makes good in the big city" scenario is just what is needed for the story.  The fact that Lloyd and his writers could come up with so many wonderful and downright hilarious gags in such a familiar story enhances the climatic finale all the more. Again, at least for me.
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Re: Buster Keaton

Post by JackFavell »

Thanks, MJ, I'll try those too.
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Re: Buster Keaton

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I'll second Kid Brother and Girl Shy, I really like his shy romantic character in these films. I do see genius in Lloyd, I just don't feel it's sustained to the level of Chaplin or Keaton, between Chaplin and Keaton I really can't chose, it depends upon my mood at the time, I tend to watch Chaplin more, perhaps he's more romantic and there's a theme here about what I like in my silent comedy, he's English too and although this isn't a reason for watching more Chaplin than Keaton, I feel that he's more fimiliar too me. Neither of them was I acquainted with as a child or young adult, unlike Harold Lloyd who I had watched.
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Re: Buster Keaton

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This thread has been directing me back to my Keaton and Chaplin titles, getting me to compare and contrast. There's one quality of Keaton's films that I have always appreciated but never could quite put my finger on. It's the way he'll let the camera linger on something that he's found to be charming. Every so often, there will be a few extra seconds of a person with an interesting face, or a dog, or some artifact of everyday life. They don't move the story along, set up a gag, or "do any business." They are just a few feet of film--here and there--where he tells us, "This is what I like." "This is beautiful to me." And I find his taste in these things very poignant and life-affirming. That's why he will always have a special place in my heart.
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Re: Buster Keaton

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charliechaplinfan wrote: I tend to watch Chaplin more, perhaps he's more romantic and there's a theme here about what I like in my silent comedy
To me Chaplin's Little Fellow puts women on a pedestal, so, perhaps with the exception of the ending of 1925 version of The Gold Rush, I don't see much romance in his films. What films of his do you find romantic?
intothenitrate wrote: There's one quality of Keaton's films that I have always appreciated but never could quite put my finger on. It's the way he'll let the camera linger on something that he's found to be charming.
I hadn't noticed this and it's intriguing. In which films and which scenes have you noticed this? I've noticed in most of his shorts, Keaton pretty much sticks to the full frame shot, with occasional close-ups. His framing is impeccable, with the seesaw-over-the fence gag in Cops being a pretty good example. (Keaton is centered, with the two opposing groups of cops on either side of the fence trying to nab him).
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Re: Buster Keaton

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Chaplin always falls deeply in love with his leading ladies, so there is a lot of longing without him telling them. I find that very romantic.
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Re: Buster Keaton

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JackFavell wrote:Chaplin always falls deeply in love with his leading ladies, so there is a lot of longing without him telling them. I find that very romantic.
I guess I see the relationships differently, because I only see the Tramp's longing in The Gold Rush, and, very briefly, in The Circus.

For me, Chaplin's silent features break down like this in regards to the women:

In the original cut of The Kid, Chaplin has Edna reunited with the Kid's artist father, so, originally at least, there was no romantic intent at all. It could be argued that the edited version, with that reunion cut out and the film ending with the Tramp being invited into Edna's home could lead to romance, but it's not overt and clearly the film is not about that anyway.

The Gold Rush is, for me, the only Chaplin silent feature that has romance, and here it's interesting that the romance is only present in the silent 1925 version and edited out for Chaplin's 1942 re-release. But even in the 1925 version, Georgia isn't interested romantically in the Tramp until their reunion on the ship. It's clearly romance after that, though (and the only time I recall that the Tramp actually kisses the girl--and, in the film, it really looks more like Chaplin is doing the kissing and not his character.)

The Circus has the unrequited love angle, but the Tramp's misunderstanding of Merna's intentions only lasts for a few minutes, so the romantic element is dismissed with pretty quickly.

City Lights. I know here I'm in the minority, but I just don't see the Little Fellow and Virginia getting together at the end. They may, but I think it's clear that Virginia would do so out of gratitude and not out of any romantic inclination on her part. Remember, before she realizes that the Tramp was her savior, she laughs at him along with her co-worker, and there's no hint of attraction to the Tramp, until, of course, she touches him. To be honest, I don't think the Tramp's motivations to help Virginia in the first place were romantic, either. Before he realizes she's blind, he doesn't really moon over her or anything, and in fact, becomes almost impatient. It's after realizing her disability that the Tramp's sympathy gene kicks in.

Modern Times. This is the Tramp being selfless again, and helping the woman in need. It's clear he and Paulette are pals, but I just don't see them as romantically involved. Even in their dream house, he's in the attached shed. And in the film's ending, where the two walk down the road, they don't even hold hands. It's obviously the continuation of a beautiful friendship, and they are united, but I still don't see romance, marriage, kids, etc., as part of their future.

Like everything, I guess it comes down to semantics and how one defines "romantic", but for me, with the exception of The Gold Rush, I see Chaplin's Little Fellow in a series of worshipful but chaste relationships.

Lloyd, however, I think is the most romantic of the big three. Probably the most romantic scene in a silent comedy would be the tree-climbing sequence in The Kid Brother where, after saying goodbye to Jobyna, Lloyd can't bare to see her leave, and he keeps climbing higher in the tree so he can keep her in view. It's as humorous as it is tender and, at least for me, very romantic. (There's plenty of romance, too, in other Lloyd features, including Girl Shy, The Freshman, and even the gag-filled, Hot Water.)

And a plug for Langdon: I think The Strong Man also has some romance (with a blind woman, too. Wonder if her character was an influence on Chaplin?), and Three's a Crowd has romantic elements, too. (Just not a lot of comedy.)
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Re: Buster Keaton

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You seem to think romance means "winning the girl". To me it's far more emotional and effective if the main character loses the girl, but still loves deeply.
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Re: Buster Keaton

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I agree with Wendy, Chaplin romanticises the women in his films by the features the Tramp character was such that he didn't ever think he ever stood a chance with them with the sole exception of the Gold Rush, I read Georgia Hale's book about Chaplin and it seemed that the female character was developed first for Lita Grey and then adapted for Georgia Hale, he married Lita and had a long romance with Georgia. In Georgia's account nothing ever happened during the filming of The Gold Rush because Chaplin was married, his seperation only being announced towards the end of filming, the kiss at the end took a long time to film with Chaplin requiring many retakes, after this their romance started, Georgia thought he had planned it all.

Chaplin romanced Merna Kennedy, married Paulette and had had a romantic relationship with Edna Purviance. With Virginia Cherrill there was only civility, I don't think you are in the minority Michigan J about the ending, I think I am, I believe that Virginia has a caring heart and although it isn't love for her at first sight, it develops.

Modern Times, I think Paulette is portraying a girrl too young and the Tramp is too much a gentleman. Does The Great Dictator count? It's undoubtedly romantic for me.

The Mutuals, some of those are very romantic and some Chaplin just out and out wins the girl, The Immigrant being the most romantic for me and films like The Vagabond and The Rink showing the sense of fun in the pursuit of Edna. Sometimes Edna is the motivator of the action, sometimes she is secondary. Behind the Scenes is one of my favorites too, quite suggestive, he knows exactly what he wants to do once he discovers his sidekick is a girl.

In Kid Brother and Girl Shy, that's perfect requited love.

What do we make of Stan and Ollie's attitude to women? I grew up with them. I guess I thought that because they were so daft they could only get wives who were dangerous looking.
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