Controversy can be fun. Really.

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pktrekgirl
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Controversy can be fun. Really.

Post by pktrekgirl »

Okay...so I just went through this entire message board and found ONE thread to post in.

*sigh*.

I just don't know...maybe I NEED a certain amount of controversy to get me interested. I need to read and respond to differing opinions. I LIKE a good debate.

I'm not talking trolling or flaming here...but I am talking controversy. Or maybe a better term would be 'disagreement and debate'.

I think if I read one more thread about how great this or that movie is...with 10 people chiming in to agree and 2 chiming in to 'almost agree but not quite', I may run out in traffic.

Anne...I would like to personally thank you for posting SOMETHING I could disagree with.

Now...will someone PLEASE post a thread about how Gary Cooper is a terrible actor, and here's why...so that I could have SOMETHING to post about around here????

Thanks! :P

Yer Pal,

Bored in Atlanta
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
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Dewey1960
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Post by Dewey1960 »

"Now...will someone PLEASE post a thread about how Gary Cooper is a terrible actor, and here's why..."

Well, he was. Why? Because he spoke in an annoying monotone and basically played the same good-natured shnook in almost every film he appeared in. With the possible exception of MEET JOHN DOE, which is a great film in spite of Coop's appearance. I don't hate or even dislike him; certainly not on a personal level--I'm sure he was a pretty terrific guy. But I find his performances to be generally very boring. Zero charisma for me. Apart from the aforementioned MEET JOHN DOE, I really don't care for his films, although Anthony Mann's western MAN OF THE WEST is pretty good, but not necessarily because of Cooper. Even the beloved-by-many BALL OF FIRE doesn't cut it for me; he totally flattens out any chance that film has of being funny.

I love it that others find him to be so wonderful, but I've never really understood his appeal--at all. Probably my least favorite of all the big film stars of the so-called classic era. Even as a kid I found him to be a bit of a snooze. Happy now?
Last edited by Dewey1960 on October 31st, 2007, 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mrsl »

Jeez pk:

I ran out of breath reading your answer, I didn't realize I was holding it. At first I had no idea what you were talking about, then I recalled my Russian thing. First of all - No, I was not all that aware of Russia's history, nor was I aware the Russian kids of my age were being fed the same crap that I was in reverse. I will accept, since I've never been there and you have, that Red Square may be fantastic on the inside, but you have to admit on the outside it is totally grey. From movies like Dr. Zhivago, the countryside is all snowy and icey, and from Russia House, it seems to be raining continuously. I doubted if Russia ever had a sunny day. The funny thing about your tirade is that I really don't have that much against Russia any longer, but just didn't have the guts to say quite what you did about the Germans.

You over-rode my point about them. If you recall, I said the same, but older generation, were the ones who fell under Hitler's thumb. How could they be so dense? It would be the same if we voted Cheney in as Pres next year as a write in candidate. The Germans had been freed from the Kaisers rule, and IMMEDIATELY they fell for Hitler's guff, doing all you said they did. I knew a guy once whose grandmother was from Germany and he got angry when I spoke about how the Germans could believe Hitlet, and he told me his grandma had taught him the holocaust was a myth.

As for Gary, I respect your adoration for him just as I appreciate people's respect for mine of Bob Mitchum. I would never tear into him. He's not one of my favorites, but he's a far cry on my list from MB (Stellllllaaaaa)

Anne
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Post by Sue Sue Applegate »

Post deleted after common sense prevailed.
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Cooper.

Post by melwalton »

Hi, PK. Knocking Cooper won't get one into any popularity polls. The guy has a following you wouldn't believe. I agree that he was not a great actor. He got the oscar twice. Robert Montgomery never did. Which, I think says something about the oscars. Acting ability was was not as important as personality for success in movies. So we had different types. You have actors like Spencer Tracy, wo don't seem to be acting at all, and then there were the Barrymores at the other end of the spectrom. and actors who didn't seem to be always trying. George Raft, Robert Mitchum, Joel McCrea stated publicly that he never tried to act which was odd because he was a good actor. a lot of times, these 'Cowboy' types got such inferior material they couldn't give a good performance. Did you see the one where Cooper played Marco Polo? Actually, he was good in action type movies, 'Lives of a Bengal Lancer', The General Died at Dawn' . Well I've said enough, now I'll duck. Hope to hear what others think....mel...
ps; I'm a little new to this; what does trolling and flaming mean?
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Post by mrsl »

mel:

Trolling and flamming are basically creating trouble by acting troublesome. Saying nasty things that you know will aggravate people, and also to hurt feelings.

pk:

You are so right, sometimes things are too nice and sweet here. There is nothing wrong with a good argument once in a while. I'm not talking about name calling, or any of that stuff, but if I say green and you say yellow, there is no reason to be afraid to discuss the merits and/or drawbacks of either color. Occassionally I'll find myself soap boxing and cut myself off, but rarely does anyone come along and disagree with me. I'm not almighty, so I'm sure people would like to say 'No, No, you're wrong' but they never do. There is a huge difference between an argument and a good debate. In a debate you state your beliefs and reasons for those beliefs, and your opponent states his, and you try to convince each other of the validity of your remarks, it doesn't have to become a screaming match.

An excess of agreement is boring and often I also find it hard to respond. At one time (on the old site) we had several discussions that went on for hours, but here, it seems as soon as somebody dissents, the discussion is dropped. I don't get it, it's like we're afraid to disagree with each other. With all the series coming up in November, we'll just see what we have to say about some of them. I wonder about Warren William as Perry Mason, and never heard of Penrod and Sam - are they anything like Penn and Teller? :wink: I'm looking forward to Torchy Blaine tomorrow but I still say nearly 2 full days of Andy Hardy is cruel and unusual punishment. Forgive me but I can't believe GWTW and African Queen are two of Donald Trumps favorite movies. I see him as more in the realm of Fountainhead and Wall Street, not the grimy sweat of Bogie in Queen.

Anne
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Post by Lzcutter »

I'm looking forward to Torchy Blaine tomorrow but I still say nearly 2 full days of Andy Hardy is cruel and unusual punishment. Forgive me but I can't believe GWTW and African Queen are two of Donald Trumps favorite movies. I see him as more in the realm of Fountainhead and Wall Street, not the grimy sweat of Bogie in Queen. >>

Anne,

Perhaps the Donald dreams of being Bogie. Sure is a better way to sleep than dreaming of being himself or Gordon Gecko in Wall Street.
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Re: Controversy can be fun. Really.

Post by Mr. Arkadin »

pktrekgirl wrote:Okay...so I just went through this entire message board and found ONE thread to post in.

*sigh*.

I just don't know...maybe I NEED a certain amount of controversy to get me interested. I need to read and respond to differing opinions. I LIKE a good debate.

I'm not talking trolling or flaming here...but I am talking controversy. Or maybe a better term would be 'disagreement and debate'.

I think if I read one more thread about how great this or that movie is...with 10 people chiming in to agree and 2 chiming in to 'almost agree but not quite', I may run out in traffic.

Anne...I would like to personally thank you for posting SOMETHING I could disagree with.

Now...will someone PLEASE post a thread about how Gary Cooper is a terrible actor, and here's why...so that I could have SOMETHING to post about around here????

Thanks! :P

Yer Pal,

Bored in Atlanta
Moira and I talked about this at length. Here's some of what I said in a PM:

Personally, I would like to see more discussion like ours (I was referring to the Sudden Fear thread) here at SSO. I feel that many people here are afraid of offending each other. This keeps things friendly, but also makes the site a bit shallow as discussions cannot go deeper into characters and personal thoughts and motivations.

I mention this because I would like to see SSO grow into a board that could actively contribute to film and be a place where people come to learn and discuss in depth. The board is growing slowly (and that's perhaps the best way), but I feel that having dissenting discussion is one of the best ways for us to achieve any honest view of understanding more about all these films we love.

I know many times we should agree to disagree, but if we never go beyond that point sometimes, this will just be another friendly board out there with no real depth and people will eventually get tired of it.


I personally think that we have reached a point here at SSO where we should be able to debate all kinds of things. This is a moderated message board and most of us know each other. I don't believe anyone here would intentionally hurt somone's feelings or personally attack them. As long as everything is done in a spirit of fun and a humble attitude there should not be problems. Bombs away!

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Post by movieman1957 »

So far, it seems, the only real "debate" we have seem to be political. (They don't seem to last too long as many of you are in agreement on those things.) Not too much of the movie kind.

I find it interesting that though we are having new members join not many are posting. Out of the last twenty or so the only real post-ers are SPTO and Mel. I have no idea why. The board is slow sometimes. Maybe that turns poeple off. I even wonder where some of our regular posters have gone.

By all means we can be controversial. We can disagree. We're mature enough that we can do this and still be friends.

Let the debates begin!
Chris

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pktrekgirl
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Re: Controversy can be fun. Really.

Post by pktrekgirl »

Mr. Arkadin wrote:
pktrekgirl wrote:Okay...so I just went through this entire message board and found ONE thread to post in.

*sigh*.

I just don't know...maybe I NEED a certain amount of controversy to get me interested. I need to read and respond to differing opinions. I LIKE a good debate.

I'm not talking trolling or flaming here...but I am talking controversy. Or maybe a better term would be 'disagreement and debate'.

I think if I read one more thread about how great this or that movie is...with 10 people chiming in to agree and 2 chiming in to 'almost agree but not quite', I may run out in traffic.

Anne...I would like to personally thank you for posting SOMETHING I could disagree with.

Now...will someone PLEASE post a thread about how Gary Cooper is a terrible actor, and here's why...so that I could have SOMETHING to post about around here????

Thanks! :P

Yer Pal,

Bored in Atlanta
Moira and I talked about this at length. Here's some of what I said in a PM:

Personally, I would like to see more discussion like ours (I was referring to the Sudden Fear thread) here at SSO. I feel that many people here are afraid of offending each other. This keeps things friendly, but also makes the site a bit shallow as discussions cannot go deeper into characters and personal thoughts and motivations.

I mention this because I would like to see SSO grow into a board that could actively contribute to film and be a place where people come to learn and discuss in depth. The board is growing slowly (and that's perhaps the best way), but I feel that having dissenting discussion is one of the best ways for us to achieve any honest view of understanding more about all these films we love.

I know many times we should agree to disagree, but if we never go beyond that point sometimes, this will just be another friendly board out there with no real depth and people will eventually get tired of it.


I personally think that we have reached a point here at SSO where we should be able to debate all kinds of things. This is a moderated message board and most of us know each other. I don't believe anyone here would intentionally hurt somone's feelings or personally attack them. As long as everything is done in a spirit of fun and a humble attitude there should not be problems. Bombs away!

Mr.A
Thanks Joel. This is exactly what I was getting at with my post. :)

My intent was not really to debate Gary Cooper in this thread. :lol: My intent was to illustrate that my own personal "golden cow" would not be immune to debate either. In other words, I don't just want to disagree with others...I want others to disagree with ME! I WANT to be challenged. I WANT to have to defend my views.

However, you said it alot better than I. I tried to make a joke out of it...and maybe it wasn't a very good one.

But what I was *trying* to say is that I do think that we need to have some more spirited conversations around here. Disagreement does NOT, on most message boards, mean all-out warfare like we experienced at TCM. What happened at the TCM board was really the board staff's fault, because they *allowed* spirited debate to erupt into warfare. But that would not happen here - the staff here is very determined in that regard.

On good, growing, moderated boards, debate is encouraged. Trolling and flaming are not...but there is a pretty wide gulf between "You know...I disagree with that remark, and here are the reasons why." and "You are the stupidest poster who ever lived - go suck an egg, jerk-wad!"

Debate does not imply dislike of a fellow poster...or disrespect for their beliefs. Not on any decent message board on the net. It's just conversation - a chance to work out those intellectual muscles. And I, for one, VALUE an individual who has the guts to say what they think...and articulately defend that position - even if they don't agree with ME. I would much rather post with someone like than than with someone who was so terminally polite that they wouldn't stand up for anything and seemed to have no other opinion besides "Gee, that's swell!"

Anyway...I've tried it with a few threads - that thread about the guest programmers, for example, was intentionally posted by me in an effort to get some controversy going around here.

But I don't know...I can't seem to get anything going, and I'm sorta running out of ideas.
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
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Post by Bogie »

movieman1957 wrote:

I find it interesting that though we are having new members join not many are posting. Out of the last twenty or so the only real post-ers are SPTO and Mel. I have no idea why. The board is slow sometimes. Maybe that turns poeple off. I even wonder where some of our regular posters have gone.
This surprises me as well because this board is very intuitive. I STILL can't figure out how to quote and do other simple tasks on the TCM board. Maybe i'm just dumb, I dunno. I also thought that what happened at the TCM board PO'ed enough people that a different environment would be wildly popular and hence more people posting here then we have at the moment.

Guess I overestimated the problems at TCM.
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Post by pktrekgirl »

movieman1957 wrote:So far, it seems, the only real "debate" we have seem to be political. (They don't seem to last too long as many of you are in agreement on those things.) Not too much of the movie kind.

:lol:

Yeah...and I have to admit feeling a bit bad for you, Chris, in those political threads. Seems like there are alot more liberal leaning folks here than conservative leaning folks....and sometimes, I'm AFRAID to disagree with you, because you are about the only one I ever disagree with...and I don't want it to appear like we are piling on. :(

I like to debate about politics...but I DON'T like doing it where it's like 12 against one. Then it feels less like debate and more like piling on. :(
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
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Post by Dewey1960 »

I think Sunday's exchange between Mr. Ark and Moira on the SUDDEN FEAR topic is about as close to a heated discussion as we're likely to get on the Oasis boards right now. And I think the reason for this is pretty simple. Back in April, when the migration here began, it was done so because a lot of people were tired of the bitter and brutal conflagrations which were regularly erupting on the TCM site. The vast majority of the folks who came here did so with the understanding that this site would be a kinder, gentler place where one could post in peace and not concern themselves with flamers and trolls. And so it has been. And will probably continue to be.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that conversations and discussions about film don't necessarily need to be marked with disagreement or debate in order to be interesting. Besides, I'm not convinced that message boards like this one are the most appropriate place for "heated discussions." Very often the true meaning of a contrary comment can easily be misconstrued by someone with a delicate sensibility. I think that most of the folks who post here are, to some degree, quite sensitive in that regard. What's so terrible (or boring, for that matter) about people agreeing with one another? There seems to be a lot of like-minded people here with similar tastes and opinions about film. Does it really matter that much if someone hates Andy Hardy movies and someone else doesn't? I think most of us understand all too well how quickly things can escalate once the first brick is tossed--even if it is done gently.

The orginal poster on this thread put it out there (facetiously, perhaps) for someone to criticize Gary Cooper. Which I did (more or less in a tongue in cheek kind of way, but genuinely felt) and one could almost sense the nervousness in the air! So what was the point, I ask? Where was the debate? Where was the arguing? I guess the point is that there is no point. This isn't what the Oasis crowd is about. And while that might represent a boring situation for some, I believe the majority of the registered users here prefer it that way. In time, the Oasis could evolve into a more challenging and confrontational avenue for film discussion, but for now it seems we are living in a neutral zone.

Anyone care to agrue the point?
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Post by pktrekgirl »

SPTO wrote:
movieman1957 wrote:

I find it interesting that though we are having new members join not many are posting. Out of the last twenty or so the only real post-ers are SPTO and Mel. I have no idea why. The board is slow sometimes. Maybe that turns poeple off. I even wonder where some of our regular posters have gone.
This surprises me as well because this board is very intuitive. I STILL can't figure out how to quote and do other simple tasks on the TCM board. Maybe i'm just dumb, I dunno. I also thought that what happened at the TCM board PO'ed enough people that a different environment would be wildly popular and hence more people posting here then we have at the moment.

Guess I overestimated the problems at TCM.
I don't think you overestimated the problems at TCM.

I think what we might have done around here is UNDERESTIMATED the problems at TCM - especially in terms of how they impacted the mentality of many of the folks who came over here.

My guess, more and more, is that some people were SO traumatized by what went on over there, than they are terrified of any sort of disagreement at all.

And then, the rest of us...who thrive on disagreement and debate (but not trolling/flaming) get bored and frustrated because we can't seem to engage anyone in debate around here.
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
pktrekgirl
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Post by pktrekgirl »

Dewey1960 wrote:I think Sunday's exchange between Mr. Ark and Moira on the SUDDEN FEAR topic is about as close to a heated discussion as we're likely to get on the Oasis boards right now. And I think the reason for this is pretty simple. Back in April, when the migration here began, it was done so because a lot of people were tired of the bitter and brutal conflagrations which were regularly erupting on the TCM site. The vast majority of the folks who came here did so with the understanding that this site would be a kinder, gentler place where one could post in peace and not concern themselves with flamers and trolls. And so it has been. And will probably continue to be.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that conversations and discussions about film don't necessarily need to be marked with disagreement or debate in order to be interesting. Besides, I'm not convinced that message boards like this one are the most appropriate place for "heated discussions." Very often the true meaning of a contrary comment can easily be misconstrued by someone with a delicate sensibility. I think that most of the folks who post here are, to some degree, quite sensitive in that regard. What's so terrible (or boring, for that matter) about people agreeing with one another? There seems to be a lot of like-minded people here with similar tastes and opinions about film. Does it really matter that much if someone hates Andy Hardy movies and someone else doesn't? I think most of us understand all too well how quickly things can escalate once the first brick is tossed--even if it is done gently.

The orginal poster on this thread put it out there (facetiously, perhaps) for someone to criticize Gary Cooper. Which I did (more or less in a tongue in cheek kind of way, but genuinely felt) and one could almost sense the nervousness in the air! So what was the point, I ask? Where was the debate? Where was the arguing? I guess the point is that there is no point. This isn't what the Oasis crowd is about. And while that might represent a boring situation for some, I believe the majority of the registered users here prefer it that way. In time, the Oasis could evolve into a more challenging and confrontational avenue for film discussion, but for now it seems we are living in a neutral zone.

Anyone care to agrue the point?
Actually, I wasn't 'nervous' in the slightest...nor was I offended, about anything you said about Gary Cooper. And if you had posted that in a different thread, where the actual intent was to talk about Gary Cooper, I WOULD have debated with you. Might even have had an interesting discussion.

That is the THING about debate - it's not personal. It's just conversation.

And what I'm worried about is that so many people around here were so messed up by what happened at TCM that they can't get past it and make message board posting NOT personal.

Now, EVERYTHING seems to be personal...and so everyone is afraid to disagree. And when people are afraid to disagree, then discussion winds down...and all you are left with is three new threads being posted a week, all of which generate the exact same conversation:

Poster 1: I saw this movie the other day, and I just loved it! Actor X was fabulous, and actress Y was great too!

Poster 2: Oh yes! I agree!

Poster 3: I agree too!

Poster 4: Well, I agree too...Isn't it just SWELL that we all agree!?

Poster 5 Well, I don't agree. Actor X wasn't 'fabulous'. He was merely 'very good'.

End thread.

*YAWN*

I read a thread like that, and I have absolutely nothing to add. Nothing.

Where can you go with a conversation like that?

And so...we continue to have only a few threads posted a week....and very few of them making it over about 6 posts total before dying.

Now...if that is the community you want...then that's fine, Dewey. But I need something more.

And by the looks of the posting rates on this board, so do alot of other people.

I'm just trying to DO something about it, rather than just give up and quit.
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
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