Controversy can be fun. Really.

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movieman1957
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Post by movieman1957 »

pktrekgirl wrote:
Yeah...and I have to admit feeling a bit bad for you, Chris, in those political threads. Seems like there are alot more liberal leaning folks here than conservative leaning folks....and sometimes, I'm AFRAID to disagree with you, because you are about the only one I ever disagree with...and I don't want it to appear like we are piling on. :(

I like to debate about politics...but I DON'T like doing it where it's like 12 against one. Then it feels less like debate and more like piling on. :(
I'm flattered you are worried about my well being. :D I don't take the contrary opinions personally. Knowing I am a political minority doesn't bother me. I certainly don't let any disagreements affect my feelings on the rest of the board or my fondness for anyone because we disagree.

There have been things I have different opinions on and I try (and think I have succeeded) in stating my opinion or where I think one may err in a way to be clear without being heavy handed about it. (I do my utmost to be tactful.) Sometimes I don't chime in as I think the tone of a thread may not make it worth the effort. There are some things I don't mind debating but seldom am I looking for an argument. That's not my nature.
Chris

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
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Dewey1960
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Post by Dewey1960 »

Actually, I wasn't 'nervous' in the slightest...nor was I offended, about anything you said about Gary Cooper. And if you had posted that in a different thread, where the actual intent was to talk about Gary Cooper, I WOULD have debated with you. Might even have an an interesting discussion.

First of all, I wasn't inferring that you were made nervous or offended by my comment, although it doesn't really surprise me that you took it to mean that. Frankly, the idea of manufacturing dissent for the sake of dissent itself is boring and counter-productive. Which seems to be at heart of your beef with this site.

Now...if that is the community you want...then that's fine, Dewey. But I need something more.

It might not be the most perfect community, but it's one that I prefer to the one you are suggesting--which seems to be one predicated on arbitrary negativity. If you need something more, then perhaps you should be splitting your time between here and TCM.
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MissGoddess
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Post by MissGoddess »

Oh goody goody! My middle name is "Controversy" so where do I start??? :P

I haven't posted that much of late here because not too many topics have sprung up which interest me, frankly, even after having started a couple of my own in the recent past. I was being funny (trying to be funny) above so it's not necessarily because there hasn't been enough to disagree about. In fact, I could disagree with more people than anyone else here but then I'd sound like a crank and my welcome would wear out fast.

It's funny that the Sudden Fear thread was mentioned---I actually haven't read any of the more recent posts so I didn't know it had gotten "controversial"---it will be my next stop after this. I was going to contribute initially when Moira started it, and it was going to be a "controversial" post because I was going to step in and offer a different viewpoint on Joan's characters. Maybe I should have and maybe now I will.

Beda, you and I share similar view points on so many classic movie issues and we disagree on enough things to keep it interesting, so personally I just want to say I always make it a point to check out your threads.

Donald Trump has one good point which has always nearly endeared him to me: his love of classic movies and their stars. I remember he said something once and I stood up and cheered, about how scuzzy the actors today were in comparison to the classics ones. I loved that someone in America in the public eye (especially someone who has benefited as much if not more than anyone else by this grotesque cult of celebrity that has taken over the media) had the temerity to say something like that. Because he's right.

What else controversial can I add? Oh, I'm German, so what's this thread about Germans I'm reading about---where is it so I can add some sturm und drang? :lol:

Gary Cooper is a rotten actor.

:shock:

Ha ha.

Now I'll behave. All this naughtiness is a direct result of having had to behave myself properly when Scott Eyman was here. I really wanted to post stronger comments and opinions but I acted like good little party guest, the kind that gets invited to the next one.
melwalton
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controversy

Post by melwalton »

I think a lot of people missed it but Brooklyn Girl and I had a ding dong going here last month, it started on the wrong thread ( my fault , I'm still learning how to post ) It was about Julie Harrie who ,I think, is wonderful and Bkln thinks is ugh, It was, certainly, a friendly debate. I was hoping for a lot of responses, Mr A responded but the Lot didn't happen.
Another time, I said 'casablanca' was not the greatest movie ever made, I really expected some strong opinions about that, but nothing.
I've noticed, people on this forum are nicer and more friendly than on others and very courteous, and more concerned about not hurting feelings which is highly commendable, Still it's quite possible to disagree, strongly without getting out of line' I was on a British forum that was going at it strongly much of the time but remained friendly.....mel
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mrsl
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Post by mrsl »

I didn't watch or ever see Sudden Fear so I didn't get into the discussion. I never contributed to Scott Eyeman either because I still don't have a clear idea of the kind of books he writes since I don't read much non-fiction.

mel:

I'm glad you try to get in. Every now and then I see a new membet has joined, but then they never post. They only problem I have is you, and a couple of other younger members use a lot of anagrams that I have absolutely no idea at all what you're saying. For some reason, I had really tough English teachers, and the language is really ingrained in me, so I have a really hard time even using things like IMO. Seeing a sentence started with a small letter, or a name is a fingernail on a blackboard to me. Someone printed a list of anagrams once, but give a girl a break - there were so many, there is no way I could memorize them all, and not having a printer, I couldn't even make a cheat sheet.


And what I'm worried about is that so many people around here were so messed up by what happened at TCM that they can't get past it and make message board posting NOT personal.

I copied and printed the above paragraph only because I don't understand why people copy entire posts instead of just the pertinent sections. I use the copy option all the time, and wonder why everyone doesn't. That was one of my big gripes at TCM, after I've read 4 or 5 paragraphs, why should I have to reread all of it?

Has anyone been watching Torchy? I'm going off now because I think Jane Wyman is going to be the best. I'll be back to see if anyone has any comments.

Anne
Anne


***********************************************************************
* * * * * * * * What is past is prologue. * * * * * * * *

]***********************************************************************
jdb1

Post by jdb1 »

These postings are well-reasoned. I have to agree that we here may be a bit leery about expressing opinions that might be construed as too "strong."

I see part of the problem from a (former) teachers point of view: there are many ways to get a discussion going, and subjects can be introduced in many different ways.

Maybe one of the things operating here is that we need a bit of direction? Perhaps we need to phrase our postings in a different way. Instead of saying "I like so-and-so a lot" and leaving it at that, we need a different sort of opening such as "what do you think of . . . ?" but with a little starting off point. "What do you think of . . . . ? Well, I think . . . ." That's just one way, of course, and has been used here.

Another element is that I don't watch TCM regularly any more - I don't have time. I depend on others here to open up discussions as to what's been shown lately. However, I think I've seen enough classic movies in my time to be able to discourse fairly rationally, if I do have something to add.

Administrators: it seems to me that from time to time some new topics, or new perspectives on old topics should be added, and the old ones with very little traffic should be retired. Perhaps an invitation to all of us to come up with some new ones should be extended now and then, just to remind us that the site needs a little juicing up, and we are the ones who should be juicing it.

I wouldn't be too worried that the site goes into lulls occasionally. Part of the reason for that is TCM itself. The programming hasn't been all that great over the last few months, but it seems to be picking up, and that will surely give us more to talk about.

* * * * *

And Anne, your question about Penrod and Sam being like Penn and Teller really made me laugh. (Actually in a way they are.) Anyway, the Penrod series was written by Booth Tarkington (who wrote Alice Adams). I haven't seen any of these films, but I did read all the books (even though they are supposed to be "boys" books), which are great windows into the world of kids at the turn of the 20th century, and which are also pretty funny.

A male friend of mine and I often exchange Penrod reminiscences like this one: Remember the time Penrod didn't do his homework, which was to compose a letter, and he stole a letter from his older sister's desk? When it came his turn to read his letter in front of the class, he discovered to his horror that it was a love letter, and he had to read about how she set of "tree-mores" (tremors) in the letter's true writer. All the rest of the week Penrod was taunted by his classmates: "Hey, Penrod, how's your tree-mores?"
feaito

Post by feaito »

movieman1957 wrote: There have been things I have different opinions on and I try (and think I have succeeded) in stating my opinion or where I think one may err in a way to be clear without being heavy handed about it. (I do my utmost to be tactful.) Sometimes I don't chime in as I think the tone of a thread may not make it worth the effort. There are some things I don't mind debating but seldom am I looking for an argument. That's not my nature.
This paragraph reflects much of my way of being too.

I for one have zero interest in discussing politics (worldwide or from any particular country, inlcuding mine). I just don't care at all for that topic, because I have an extremely pessimistic point of view about politics in the world in general. I adhere very much to conspiracy types of theories regarding how the world has been and is being run by factual Powers.

As for "cinematic" discussion I see Beda's point and it's absolutely valid. Myself, being only 40 years old, most of the times I feel like if I were much, much older and I feel so, so tired. I had a very rough childhood from a psychological point of view (this is getting very personal, but I don't mind discussing this stuff with you) and have been through lots of things these last years and I feel that I want to avoid innecessary discussions. When I was in my twenties and early thirties and was quite the opposite, quite controversial, discussed a lot, very passionate about my points of view, even not-so-respectful and immature; I became angry very easily, I felt offended easily too and I could be very aggressive, but that's over. I feel that in a way I have evolved and I'm different now. I'm much more happy with myself now and I'm in personal search for inner peace, truth and tranquility.

That doesn't mean that I can't give my opinion or that I'm afraid to disagree. For example, once in the Gary Cooper thread I stated that I loved his 30s films, but that I did not care that much for his later screen persona or such loved films of his like "Pride of the Yankees" et al. But if there's a thread about Marlon Brando, who's not my cup of tea at all, but who BTW I found to be (objectively speaking) a very good actor, I'll probably won't chime in. Least of all if there's a thread about politics, a subject I deeply loathe.

Sometimes my train of thought puzzles me and is confusing, but I hope I expressed my ideas correctly.

I love this place! Long live SSO... and I hope you'll find more posts to disagree with Beda and engage in healthy discussions :wink:
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Post by pktrekgirl »

Dewey1960 wrote:Actually, I wasn't 'nervous' in the slightest...nor was I offended, about anything you said about Gary Cooper. And if you had posted that in a different thread, where the actual intent was to talk about Gary Cooper, I WOULD have debated with you. Might even have an an interesting discussion.

First of all, I wasn't inferring that you were made nervous or offended by my comment, although it doesn't really surprise me that you took it to mean that. Frankly, the idea of manufacturing dissent for the sake of dissent itself is boring and counter-productive. Which seems to be at heart of your beef with this site.

Now...if that is the community you want...then that's fine, Dewey. But I need something more.

It might not be the most perfect community, but it's one that I prefer to the one you are suggesting--which seems to be one predicated on arbitrary negativity. If you need something more, then perhaps you should be splitting your time between here and TCM.
As usual, you seem to be completely missing the point where I am concerned, and seem to be manufacturing motives for me which do not, in fact, exist.

I am NOT trying to 'manufacture dissent where none exists'. I'm trying to get people to not be afraid of posting their true feelings - about any number of topics. Because it is not a real discussion if everyone is saying what they think others want them to say...or not posting at all for fear of hurting some else's feelings - EVEN when they post in a polite manner.

Besides, why should you care anyway? You seem to have no problem with disagreement - polite or otherwise. As your attack on me clearly demonstrates.
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
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Dewey1960
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Post by Dewey1960 »

As your attack on me clearly demonstrates.

Attacking you? I was merely disagreeing with what you said. And you perceived it as an attack. Perhaps my point has just been made.
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Post by pktrekgirl »

MissGoddess wrote:Beda, you and I share similar view points on so many classic movie issues and we disagree on enough things to keep it interesting, so personally I just want to say I always make it a point to check out your threads.
And see...the relationship you and I have is exactly what I'm talking about.

You and I 'get' each other, I think. We agree on alot, it's true. But certainly not on everything. And I've never been fearful of disagreeing with you....like you would crack if I actually posted "Wow - I don't see it that way!"

In fact, some of the times we have disagreed have been the most productive moments for me on this board....because I value your opinion and often determined to rethink my position, watch a film again, or some other thing to try and grasp your point.

THAT is why I like disagreement. Not for the sake of it, but because to the mature person, it is an opportunity to learn, grow, and re-think their positions.
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
pktrekgirl
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Post by pktrekgirl »

Dewey1960 wrote:As your attack on me clearly demonstrates.

Attacking you? I was merely disagreeing with what you said. And you perceived it as an attack. Perhaps my point has just been made.
Dewey...you were the only one in this thread who made it personal.

I don't know if you realize it, but there is a difference between attacking a POSITION and attacking a PERSON.

For you to basically tell me to go away if I don't like it...that is attacking not my position on the topic, but me personally.

HUGE difference.

Also, if you think this little slam:
although it doesn't really surprise me that you took it to mean that.
wasn't personal, rather than a comment on the TOPIC....well...I don't know what to tell you.
My wife said she'd help young people, ... That's what I'd do. Help young people, then buy a big motor home and get out of town.
~ Gary Cooper
melwalton
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general chat

Post by melwalton »

Hi, Anne. I'm sorry that I confused you. I know, I'm not very circumspect with my grammar but being more so would be too difficult for me. I write the way I talk. I'm not erudite. As for posting, that's my idea of what a forum is all about, and why I joined. I love to express my opinion and hear others. Your mention of anagrams puzzled me. Doesn;t that mean changing the order of letters in a word or words in a sentence? Have I, really, been doing that? I'm surprized to learn so, Give me an example, I'm curious. ...mel
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Dewey1960
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Post by Dewey1960 »

For you to basically tell me to go away if I don't like it...that is attacking not my position on the topic, but me personally.

I did not tell you to go away, I merely suggested that posting on TCM as well as Oasis might be a logical solution for you. Nowhere in my comment did I ever say that you should go away. Sorry you took it personally; it was not meant to be an attack.
Mr. Arkadin
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Post by Mr. Arkadin »

Whoa guys! We're all friends here. Pktrekgirl, I don't think Dewey meant anything personal. Dewey, I don't think pktrekgirl meant anything personal. OK?

I think both of you are expressing valid concerns. I want to be able to speak on things and not hide my feelings (otherwise what's the point of being here?), but at the same time it's difficult to do that in printed word as many things can be misinterpeted. Smilies help, but they cannot convey the thoughts behind words as well as face to face talk.

As Dewey says there are some people here who were quite traumatized, by what happened at TCM and I understand that completely. When I send a post out that I feel could have been misinterpeted, I usually follow up with a PM to that person to make sure that they know I'm not attacking them personally, we just disagree.

I also try to use words in responding to people like; personally, I think, in my opinion, etc. This allows me to state what I think without trashing someone else's views. I think many times two opposing views on film (or other things) both contain elements of truth and by friendly :lol: discussion, both parties can learn many new things.

I'm always interested in others' views and why they think the way they do. Sometimes I'm won over, sometimes not. When Sisters (1973) showed I quizzed Johnm about the film and Brian DePalma's work in general. I recorded the film and discussed it a bit with him. I was not totally happy with the film, but I saved it and will watch again at a later date. Both of us were cordial and John actually encouraged me to state my views to him (which were not positive). I think if you are sincerely interested in something and are willing to LISTEN to others views and not just wait to spout off, most people will understand and respect that.

In the Sudden Fear thread, it was not a big deal. Moira saw the film one way, and I another. I think both points were valid, and should be said. I PMed her just to be sure that everything was OK, and it was. People should not be gagged and bound, but should use good judgement and tact. A little goes a long way. :wink:
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