True or False? Just a theory...

[Mr. O'Brady]

Sorry, I'm the one and only non-Ramones fan. I've loved punk from Television to the Distillers, but I never understood them.

[Dewey1960]

"I've loved punk from Television to the Distillers..."
In that case, you're excused!

[silentscreen]

I don't consider rap music as being music at all. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but shouldn't music be melodic? So yes, I think rap music in the opening credits to a film would have a tendency to turn me off. It would lead me to believe that I wouldn't be interested in the subject matter of the film.

[ChiO]

Bryce alleges:

Someone here, who shall remain nameless but who was, cough cough, a huge supporter of Touch of Evil and Orson Welles during the noir contest, likes to tell me about how he saw Richard Lloyd tour with Rocket from the Tombs in 2006. Talk about an amazing combination. He didn't tell me if they covered any Television songs....

If I might speak on behalf of said person, they only performed Rocket from the Tombs tunes, some of which were later recorded by Pere Ubu and, I believe, The Dead Boys. Can you imagine David Thomas singing Glory or Marquee Moon? In a bit of synchronicity, the first Television gig outside of NYC environs was in Cleveland in late-May 1975 and the opening band was...Rocket from the Tombs. Seven RFTT songs from one of the nights are on RFTT's The Day the Earth Met the.... If it matters, I have a small concert poster signed by David Thomas from the June 4, 2003, RFTT performance.

And rap/hip-hop is indeed music, every bit as much as musique concrete, free jazz and qawwali. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea (it lost me when gangsta took over, but that's a function of lyric content, not the instrumental/rhythmic/vocal context). But I'll take Grandmaster Flash or Afrika Bambaataa over John Gary or Steve Lawrence any day...and Roy Orbison or Sam Cooke over any of them. C'est la vie.

[mrsl]

Sorry but may I interject with:

1. Who were the Ramones

2. and when were they popular,

3. and what did they sing,

4. and were the men or women?

Anne

[Dewey1960]

Hi Anne. For the record (party!), the RAMONES were:
1. One of the first, if not the very first, American punk rock band.
2. They formed in the mid 1970s and performed live and recorded until the mid 1990s. Their heyday would have been the late 70s / early 80s.
3. They sang and played loud, raucous, simple two-chord progression punk rock. Most of their songs clocked in around two minutes. Hard and fast.
4. They were men. Even though they weren't actually related, they all took the fictitious surname of Ramone (three of the founding members, Joey Ramone, Johnny Ramone and DeeDee Ramone have all since passed away). Never popular with mainstream radio, they nonetheless have managed to cultivate a larger than life following (even in death).
5. I love 'em; you won't.
6. GABBA GABBA HEY!! (a Ramones kind of thing to say)

[Mr. O'Brady]

One of the first, if not the very first, American punk rock band.

That statement often leads to heated arguments!

[Dewey1960]

That statement often leads to heated arguments!

A heated argument!? On these boards!?

[ChiO]

1-2-3-4, Dewey sez:

6. GABBA GABBA HEY!! (a Ramones kind of thing to say)

Anne: Just to make the film connection, "GABBA GABBA HEY!!" is the final refrain of the Ramones' marvelous ditty, Pinhead (I don't wanna be a Pinhead no more....D-U-M-B/Everyone's accusin' me), which is an homage to Tod Browning's FREAKS. They broke rock'n'roll down into it's simplest elements and celebrated them. I can't help but smile when I hear them (though I choke up when I just think of poor Joey Ramone) and can't think of a post-1974 or so band that I like more (well, maybe The Mekons). In fact, when I retired five years ago, one of the gifts my Chicago staff gave me was a Ramones t-shirt.

Hey! Ho! Let's go!

[ChiO]

Bryce erroneously said:

Now now, Dewey did say first, not best, although he'd be wrong in both cases, as everyone knows the New York Dolls came before and were better than the Ramones.

We'll grant you the "before", but the "better"? Puh-leeze. Go listen to your Buster Poindexter records. Too Glam to be Punk (woulda made a good album title). And too self-conscious.

And if Dewey says da Bruddahs Ramones -- without invoking his homeys The Stooges or (thankfully) The MC5 -- then that's that.

Now, Patti Smith, Tom Verlaine, and Richard Hell....

[Dewey1960]

And if Dewey says da Bruddahs Ramones -- without invoking his homeys The Stooges or (thankfully) The MC5 -- then that's that.

Facts are facts: the STOOGES and the 5 have their place, but it's a place far down the ladder from the RAMONES. The Motor City produced punk bands in the day that totally kicked STOOGE / 5 butt. Like THE WOOLIES, THE RATIONALS, THE UNRELATED SEGMENTS, THE WANTED, THE ONES, MITCH RYDER AND THE DETROIT WHEELS, TERRY KNIGHT AND THE PACK, DOUG BROWN AND THE OMENS, and on and on and on...

[Mr. O'Brady]

Okay, now that the Dolls, MC5, Stooges, Verlaine, Hell, and my favorite Patti Smith have been mentioned, no arguments. Early punk had no defining sound, just the attitude. If you wanted 3-chord ultra-fast 2-minute tunes, the Ramones were your guys. Now I think I'll hit Mike Ness's website...

[MichiganJ]

Arguing who was first in punk is like arguing who was the first in heavy metal (The Kinks? All Day and All of the Night rocks pretty heavy for 1964). Sure the New York Dolls were first, and their influence was felt for sometime (although their reunion album leaves much to be desired). But I had the opportunity to see The Ramones a number of times at their old haunt, CBGB’s, and while I never had the opportunity to see the Dolls, they’d be hard-pressed to put on a better show then Joey and the boys (Fun fact: The Ramones got their name from the pseudonym Paul McCartney used to use, “Paul Ramone”.)