Morning all,
Is it me? Or did women in general appear softer and more feminine than they do today? Was it the clothing styles? Or the hairstyles? Or is it just a function of today's world in which women have assumed (and rightfully so) many of the once traditionally male roles in society? I'm 56 so I remember a time when a woman wouldn't be caught dead outside her home without a dress and full makeup. I like the changes time has brought but I'm also drawn to the way things used to be. Whatta y'say?
As always,
Hollis
Women of the 1940's
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jdb1
Oh, boy, Hollis. What a loaded question.
My initial response is Yes, you're not imagining it. Women did look and act relatively "softer" than they do today, but at that time, that was a woman's role. It's more than just hair and makeup, it's body language.
If a woman wants to be taken seriously in the business world, she's not likely to be sashaying around like Ann Sheridan at her most glamorous. I think women walk and talk much more forthrightly than they did when I was young; certainly more so that in previous generations.
But as for not going out of the house without being fully and formally "dressed," that concept applied not just to women, but to men as well. Just about everyone "dressed" to go out of the house, to work, or in to town. Men routinely wore jackets (and hats) out of doors, and women rarely went out and about in slacks (although it did happen more often than the movies would lead you to believe).
Even when I was a girl, up until the mid-60s, we always dressed up to go out to eat; it was a question of degree of formality in dress, depending upon where we were going. And to go to the theater, or visiting relatives - we always dressed up. According to today's standards, people around here don't even dress up to go to church, or to court (e.g., jury duty). That would have been scandalous in my youth.
A woman's primary job in the past was to get a man and get married. And so she had to dress accordingly, and stay nicely dressed if she were to keep her man in the face of all the competition (and women were much more competitive about such things then). Nowadays, there are different expectations for us, and it seems to me our manner of dressing changes as we enter different stages of our lives. Younger women generally "soften" themselves up a bit in social situations. However, unless they intend to sleep their way to the top, they generally dress in a less alluring, more businesslike way for work purposes. That way of dressing used to be called "masculine." Now it's regarded as "business appropriate."
One more thing: one of the reasons actresses appear to be walking differently in movies than do today's women is the clothing and shoes. Just about every woman wore a girdle, whether she needed it or not. (And how binding and uncomfortable those contraptions were.) They also usually wore extremely high heels; and the advent of platform shoes caused them to walk in an even more exaggeratedly "feminine" way. All they were really doing was trying to keep their balance.
My initial response is Yes, you're not imagining it. Women did look and act relatively "softer" than they do today, but at that time, that was a woman's role. It's more than just hair and makeup, it's body language.
If a woman wants to be taken seriously in the business world, she's not likely to be sashaying around like Ann Sheridan at her most glamorous. I think women walk and talk much more forthrightly than they did when I was young; certainly more so that in previous generations.
But as for not going out of the house without being fully and formally "dressed," that concept applied not just to women, but to men as well. Just about everyone "dressed" to go out of the house, to work, or in to town. Men routinely wore jackets (and hats) out of doors, and women rarely went out and about in slacks (although it did happen more often than the movies would lead you to believe).
Even when I was a girl, up until the mid-60s, we always dressed up to go out to eat; it was a question of degree of formality in dress, depending upon where we were going. And to go to the theater, or visiting relatives - we always dressed up. According to today's standards, people around here don't even dress up to go to church, or to court (e.g., jury duty). That would have been scandalous in my youth.
A woman's primary job in the past was to get a man and get married. And so she had to dress accordingly, and stay nicely dressed if she were to keep her man in the face of all the competition (and women were much more competitive about such things then). Nowadays, there are different expectations for us, and it seems to me our manner of dressing changes as we enter different stages of our lives. Younger women generally "soften" themselves up a bit in social situations. However, unless they intend to sleep their way to the top, they generally dress in a less alluring, more businesslike way for work purposes. That way of dressing used to be called "masculine." Now it's regarded as "business appropriate."
One more thing: one of the reasons actresses appear to be walking differently in movies than do today's women is the clothing and shoes. Just about every woman wore a girdle, whether she needed it or not. (And how binding and uncomfortable those contraptions were.) They also usually wore extremely high heels; and the advent of platform shoes caused them to walk in an even more exaggeratedly "feminine" way. All they were really doing was trying to keep their balance.
Hi Judith,
Thanks for making me think a little more deeply. I guess it was a rather superficial question on the face of it. You also made me aware of some very salient points that I wasn't even aware of. I remember going to Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve with a girl I was dating years ago who happened to be Catholic. I showed up at her house wearing a jacket and tie, and both she and her parents were in jeans! I was stunned. I did get some approving smiles from many of the older folks at Mass who were similarly attired. I for one am very happy for the changes that time has wrought in that it's far easier to talk to women these days than it once was because there are so many fewer taboos to be wary of. I've always thought (and this is not intended as either condescending or patronizing) that in many ways, women were far superior to men. Native intellect, the ability to control their emotions and oftentimes pure logical thought are some of the areas in which I feel that women have the edge over we men. Thanks again for a typically incisive and clearcut response.
As always,
Hollis
Thanks for making me think a little more deeply. I guess it was a rather superficial question on the face of it. You also made me aware of some very salient points that I wasn't even aware of. I remember going to Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve with a girl I was dating years ago who happened to be Catholic. I showed up at her house wearing a jacket and tie, and both she and her parents were in jeans! I was stunned. I did get some approving smiles from many of the older folks at Mass who were similarly attired. I for one am very happy for the changes that time has wrought in that it's far easier to talk to women these days than it once was because there are so many fewer taboos to be wary of. I've always thought (and this is not intended as either condescending or patronizing) that in many ways, women were far superior to men. Native intellect, the ability to control their emotions and oftentimes pure logical thought are some of the areas in which I feel that women have the edge over we men. Thanks again for a typically incisive and clearcut response.
As always,
Hollis
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charliechaplinfan
- Posts: 9040
- Joined: January 15th, 2008, 9:49 am
Hollis it's such an interesting question. I've spent the last couple of nights flicking through a photographic book about Rita Hayworth. She was gorgeous and is a good example of feminity in the 1940's. Much as I love looking at how glamourous she is I wouldn't want to dress that way everyday.
I completely agree with what Judith has said. Sometimes though I think the casual, dressed down look has gone a little too far. I'm not advocating dresses and high heels and uncomfortable underwear but I abhor the fashion, in this country at least for hipster jeans that push excessive flesh upwards and then tops that don't cover the excess flesh. It's not stylish, does nothing for the wearer apart from make them look bigger than they actually are. Sorry it's one of my bugbears
Back to your original question, personally I don't think I could be that kind of woman, she doesn't fit into today's world for all the reason's Judith has named.
The fun side of being a female is being able to dress up, wear make up have a greater variety of hairstyles than are available to men and jewelry too. For all these reasons it's good to be female and be able to be feminine
.
I completely agree with what Judith has said. Sometimes though I think the casual, dressed down look has gone a little too far. I'm not advocating dresses and high heels and uncomfortable underwear but I abhor the fashion, in this country at least for hipster jeans that push excessive flesh upwards and then tops that don't cover the excess flesh. It's not stylish, does nothing for the wearer apart from make them look bigger than they actually are. Sorry it's one of my bugbears
Back to your original question, personally I don't think I could be that kind of woman, she doesn't fit into today's world for all the reason's Judith has named.
The fun side of being a female is being able to dress up, wear make up have a greater variety of hairstyles than are available to men and jewelry too. For all these reasons it's good to be female and be able to be feminine
.Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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jdb1
The real change over the past generation, Alison, is that a woman can be what she wants to be, not what she feels she has to be, as was the case in the past. Younger women today simply don't realize the ignominy that was faced by an unmarried or working woman in the past. And that's one good thing the Classic Movies did for us: some women were seen as independent, self-sufficient and, more importantly, happy (although finding romance was nice, too).
How many women of the past generation were miserable and bitter about their unhappy marriages, or missed opportunities to have a career, because they "did the right thing" and got married, or if not, sacrificed their personal freedom to serve others? It's small wonder that someone like Katharine Hepburn was so celebrated -- she did what so many women wished they had the courage (and the money) to do.
And that makes me think of something: in the past, whenever a woman said something negative, she was labeled "bitter." It happened to me countless times when I was younger. If something was generally accepted by society, and I didn't like it and said so, I was told I was being bitter. If I said I wasn't really interested in being married, wow - that could subject me to a torrent of lectures on how bitter and unfeminine I was being. It's been a very long time since I heard anyone accuse a woman of being bitter. (Well, except for Frau Farbissneh of Austin Powers -- "farbisseneh" means "bitter woman" in Yiddish.) Thank our Higher Powers, it seems it's now accepted that a woman might have some strong opinions of her own, ones that might even disagree with a man's.
How many women of the past generation were miserable and bitter about their unhappy marriages, or missed opportunities to have a career, because they "did the right thing" and got married, or if not, sacrificed their personal freedom to serve others? It's small wonder that someone like Katharine Hepburn was so celebrated -- she did what so many women wished they had the courage (and the money) to do.
And that makes me think of something: in the past, whenever a woman said something negative, she was labeled "bitter." It happened to me countless times when I was younger. If something was generally accepted by society, and I didn't like it and said so, I was told I was being bitter. If I said I wasn't really interested in being married, wow - that could subject me to a torrent of lectures on how bitter and unfeminine I was being. It's been a very long time since I heard anyone accuse a woman of being bitter. (Well, except for Frau Farbissneh of Austin Powers -- "farbisseneh" means "bitter woman" in Yiddish.) Thank our Higher Powers, it seems it's now accepted that a woman might have some strong opinions of her own, ones that might even disagree with a man's.
Your question, Hollis, for me anyway, is not in the least shallow. It may masquerade as shallow. Just as I could easily have been dismissed as a mere crying little boy, who was in fact, when separated from his Mom in pedestrian traffic (and her so beautifully coiffed and attired in her fur coat and hat), I was a human being experiencing an all consuming introduction to separation anxiety.
Hollis, if I may be so familiar, you do look a bit silly in those moccasins. You are trying to sneak up on a subject too large for us, your tribe of posters, to surround. Our topic today, boys and girls, is change. Cloaked, granted, in the narrow question of has there been some lessening of gentility in womenfolk. Or to put it in another way and gender, how can I tip a hat I no longer wear.
While I applaud new choices and freedoms I do somehow miss an era when the important questions of life were left to Beaver.
No, my friend, your question isn’t shallow. Like a child’s ticket to Barnum and Bailey, despite its fragile thinness, it represents a world of wonders to behold.
Hollis, if I may be so familiar, you do look a bit silly in those moccasins. You are trying to sneak up on a subject too large for us, your tribe of posters, to surround. Our topic today, boys and girls, is change. Cloaked, granted, in the narrow question of has there been some lessening of gentility in womenfolk. Or to put it in another way and gender, how can I tip a hat I no longer wear.
While I applaud new choices and freedoms I do somehow miss an era when the important questions of life were left to Beaver.
No, my friend, your question isn’t shallow. Like a child’s ticket to Barnum and Bailey, despite its fragile thinness, it represents a world of wonders to behold.
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charliechaplinfan
- Posts: 9040
- Joined: January 15th, 2008, 9:49 am
There is a big difference in my generation from the seventies and my Mum's generation (she was born in 1939). I always expected to get married one day and if it happened it happened but if it didn't well, that's the way it was to be. I was more focused towards work, earning money and saving up to buy my own house.
My mother had a job after school but it tided her over until she got married and had children. She wasn't allowed to marry a man who wasn't a Catholic.
I'm a church goer but lived with my hubby for years before marrying (I just don't like big do's and was filled with horror at the thought of everyone getting involved, we'd probably have married sooner if family had kept out of it) we eloped married in the early stages of my pregnancy with our first child. My point being, my priest knew I lived 'in sin' and that I was pregnant. I never felt anything other than welcome at my church.
The difference between my mother's generation and my generation is a huge difference. We are completely different types of women. She is subservient to my Dad, I expect to make decisions together and a hand now and again with the housework.
In the years between my mother and I lots of changes have happened that have effected women's lives. I like to think for the better. The downside is perhaps life does seem more complicated and not as clear cut anymore.
When it comes to Katharine Hepburn, I look at her and fully appreciate how modern she was and applaud her for her career and her choice to live her life how she wanted to live it. She's one of my favorites, can you tell
My mother had a job after school but it tided her over until she got married and had children. She wasn't allowed to marry a man who wasn't a Catholic.
I'm a church goer but lived with my hubby for years before marrying (I just don't like big do's and was filled with horror at the thought of everyone getting involved, we'd probably have married sooner if family had kept out of it) we eloped married in the early stages of my pregnancy with our first child. My point being, my priest knew I lived 'in sin' and that I was pregnant. I never felt anything other than welcome at my church.
The difference between my mother's generation and my generation is a huge difference. We are completely different types of women. She is subservient to my Dad, I expect to make decisions together and a hand now and again with the housework.
In the years between my mother and I lots of changes have happened that have effected women's lives. I like to think for the better. The downside is perhaps life does seem more complicated and not as clear cut anymore.
When it comes to Katharine Hepburn, I look at her and fully appreciate how modern she was and applaud her for her career and her choice to live her life how she wanted to live it. She's one of my favorites, can you tell
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
I can't add anything to what's been said because all the ladies who answered were completely truthful and factual. I can however demonstrate some similarities and differences.
The hardest thing for me was accepting that my two daughters had totally different beliefs than I. Between my mothers generation and mine, there were very little changes. The man wore the pants in the family both literally and figuratively, he made the rules, period, no argument. My mother and her co-horts took jobs in factories, shops and all sorts of places during WWII, yet when the men came home, they fell right back into the groove of obedient wife and mother. Until about 1963 none of us would consider leaving the house without full underwear (girdle included), hosiery, and a hat to match our outfit. Jeans were to wash the floor, clean house, or do lawn work, suddenly our daughters were wearing jeans to upper class restaurants, and our sons wore sneakers with dress slacks, while everyone wore shoes without socks!!! I could go on and on but it's no longer necessary, you get my meaning.
I do believe the hardest change in generations was the WWII people, and from the end of Vietnam, through all the desert wars. Life has become looser and less self conscious. Unfortunately though, much of our decisions are now based on I rather than we.
Anne
The hardest thing for me was accepting that my two daughters had totally different beliefs than I. Between my mothers generation and mine, there were very little changes. The man wore the pants in the family both literally and figuratively, he made the rules, period, no argument. My mother and her co-horts took jobs in factories, shops and all sorts of places during WWII, yet when the men came home, they fell right back into the groove of obedient wife and mother. Until about 1963 none of us would consider leaving the house without full underwear (girdle included), hosiery, and a hat to match our outfit. Jeans were to wash the floor, clean house, or do lawn work, suddenly our daughters were wearing jeans to upper class restaurants, and our sons wore sneakers with dress slacks, while everyone wore shoes without socks!!! I could go on and on but it's no longer necessary, you get my meaning.
I do believe the hardest change in generations was the WWII people, and from the end of Vietnam, through all the desert wars. Life has become looser and less self conscious. Unfortunately though, much of our decisions are now based on I rather than we.
Anne
Anne
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Anne, you said a mouthful! Altruism and chivalry are running neck and neck at the head of the endangered species list! Try as hard as we might to blur the boundary (if that's the right word) between the two sexes, in the end I honestly feel that deep down we're a lot more alike than we might sometimes choose to admit. I only wish in my younger years I had been more aware of some of the differences and similarities. Who knows, I might have been looking ahead to a 25th wedding anniversary! But whatever those differences and similarities might be, as the French would say, "Viva la Difference!"
As always,
Hollis
As always,
Hollis
Hollis
I don't know if it's the same in America, but over here, it's almost rare to see a woman in a skirt or a dress. Just a few yrs ago trouser suits were a rarity in the office, but now it's the common thing to see a girl dressed that way (It's called Power Dressing over here). Now that it's summer the fashion appears to be three-quarter mast trousers.
I think this is the best time for women's fashions in the sense anything goes. A woman can wear what she wants without fear of looking out of place.
I don't know if it's the same in America, but over here, it's almost rare to see a woman in a skirt or a dress. Just a few yrs ago trouser suits were a rarity in the office, but now it's the common thing to see a girl dressed that way (It's called Power Dressing over here). Now that it's summer the fashion appears to be three-quarter mast trousers.
I think this is the best time for women's fashions in the sense anything goes. A woman can wear what she wants without fear of looking out of place.
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jdb1
Ken, I have to agree with you there. Young women in NYC do not wear hosiery, and most seem to forget that it makes the lumps, bumps, hairs, scars, bruises and bulging veins on their legs that much more visible to the rest of us. It's not a pretty sight. And of course then we get the corollary -- bare feet, pedicured or not. I'm still a bit shocked to see young women (and men!) in business attire and flip-flops. Ugh. I don't know why businesses are afraid to enforce their dress codes. It isn't really something they should be afraid of; it's unlikely any employee would take them to court over it, and if they did, they'd lose. An employer has the right to make the rules about dress and behavior in its own work environment for "at-will" employees.ken123 wrote:I have noticed the last few years that women, younger ladies mostly, seem never to wear hosiery. I find that development most depressin, one of my favorites " hobbies " has been admiring women legs is sexy hose. Oh well ! I guess that I must adjust to the new times.
I have been giving the main topic some thought over the weekend, and I have come to the conclusion that one of the reasons for my mother's constant meanness and anger was that she would have liked a career, and never really wanted to marry, but she didn't have the courage to break away (even though she was never shy about blowing her own horn to us about what a tower of strength she was). Then when I struck out on my own and became self-sufficient, single and happy, she resented the hell out of it. I believe a lot of the backlash from other women against the feminist movement and its push to pass the Equal Rights Amendment stems from this kind of resentment.
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movieman1957
- Administrator
- Posts: 5522
- Joined: April 15th, 2007, 3:50 pm
- Location: MD
Judith:
The thing about the flip flops bugs me too as it has creeped into the church culture. Casual is one thing but for my own personal taste that is a bit too far. I gave up wearing ties and coats but I'm just old fashined enough that I don't think people should not wear shorts and flip flops to church. They're still fine people but my sense is that a little respect for where you are is still in order.
The thing about the flip flops bugs me too as it has creeped into the church culture. Casual is one thing but for my own personal taste that is a bit too far. I gave up wearing ties and coats but I'm just old fashined enough that I don't think people should not wear shorts and flip flops to church. They're still fine people but my sense is that a little respect for where you are is still in order.
Chris
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
Judith:
As usual you hit the nail on the head about the flip-flops. Legs and feet are not the prettiest things on people and by noon you've already been outside and walking so your feet are not looking like they do as you step out of the shower stall.
Chris:
Respect - ha - there is little enough of that around nowadays. Whatever religious denomination you are, your place of worship deserves that extra half hour of dressing better than you would to go to the beach. Walk into any high school in September and you'll have trouble enough trying to figure out who is the teacher and who are the students if they're all standing in a circle. We've taken the idea of relaxed living to a bit far extreme.
I must be a really smart cookie because over 25 years ago when the first 'Dress-Down' Friday occurred, I felt a chill and never observed it out of pure nastiness. For some reason I knew someday, all days would be 'dress-down' Fridays.
Anne
As usual you hit the nail on the head about the flip-flops. Legs and feet are not the prettiest things on people and by noon you've already been outside and walking so your feet are not looking like they do as you step out of the shower stall.
Chris:
Respect - ha - there is little enough of that around nowadays. Whatever religious denomination you are, your place of worship deserves that extra half hour of dressing better than you would to go to the beach. Walk into any high school in September and you'll have trouble enough trying to figure out who is the teacher and who are the students if they're all standing in a circle. We've taken the idea of relaxed living to a bit far extreme.
I must be a really smart cookie because over 25 years ago when the first 'Dress-Down' Friday occurred, I felt a chill and never observed it out of pure nastiness. For some reason I knew someday, all days would be 'dress-down' Fridays.
Anne
Anne
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