Credit

[Hollis]

Bryce,

Time for a history lesson. The proximate cause of the Second World War was the amount of reparations demanded by the Allied Nations (France in particular.) Hitler knew that the best way to rescue his country from the shackles of the Great Depression was to put everyone to work. Hence, the Autobahn, the Volkswagen ( designed by a certain Dr Porsche to Herr Schickelgruber's specifications) and most notably, the Nazi war machine. France was demanding more in reparations in a given year than the entire German DNP. Given that they had been rebuffed in their expansion plans a mere 15 years earlier, it was, to them, the most expedient way to recover from the depression and rebuild their war machine at the same time. Any arguments? After all it has been a few years since 9th grade world history.

Hollis

[moira finnie]

Say, to bring this back to the question of Credit in the modern world, does anyone see those pre-purchased credit cards with set amounts, anywhere from $20 on up to be a good way for people--especially college students--to learn to use money wisely?

I've received them in the past and they are quite useful, though I haven't had the opportunity to go out of the country with them like Ollie. Darn it.

[feaito]

These days I'd like a world without credit cards, mortgages, bills, debts, marketing, banks, derivative transactions, options, stock markets, working 10 hours a day, etc. I had such a good time during my vacations away from all the burdens of life in a big metropolis! And I did not miss its comfortable side either. Is back to basics a possibility? I'd be willing to try, but with a broadband internet connection

[charliechaplinfan]

I agree Fernando. I could live without credit, long working hours etc but I NEED my broadband connection. No question about it.

Hollis your ninth grade history is sound to me. He had to get a foothold and the high cost of the reparations gave him the chance. If you want to expand to a history thread, I'll enjoy it, I love history.

[Synnove]

Ignoring Hitler could lead to genocide. On the other hand, keeping a bit cool could lead to peace. But heck, arguing's fun.

Re. the history lesson, it's a good summary, certainly the downfall of the economy, which he had predicted for years, was the big reason for why he gained popularity. However, I like economic explanations for why history took it's course as much as anyone because they make sense, but there were other reasons why WWII happened, weren't there? Ideological ones? It's too easy to take one truth and make it into the whole truth.

(The fact is that I've a history exam on the 20th century this Friday, and, well, there's going to be many questions on economy - and I hate economy!)

Mother Nature could easily wipe out any technology humans erected - despite the sloganism and idol-worshipping of any regime, Mother Nature remains impressive.

Considering the barrage of new technology we get all the time and all the problems that go with it, I actually find this comforting. Shows what a sheltered existence I lead.

[movieman1957]

At its most basic WWI caused WWII. (granted that it is much more complicated.) In addition to the other things cited Hitler was upset that the Germans were forced to sign the Versaille Treaty the way it was. He thought it was an embarassment. The French, particularly, wanted to make sure it never happened again so they wanted to punish the Germans. Little did they know.....

Back to the original topic....

Anyway, credit is such a ingrained part of life that insurance companies use it as one of the many factors in determining rates for policies. People with lower credit scores, as a group, have more losses than those with better scores. The pinch comes when people who have no credit or not enough are caught in a squeeze because they don't easily fall into a better group. There is no way to measure them to redefine what category they might otherwise belong to.

[charliechaplinfan]

It's the same here with energy. People with low credit or income have meter boxes that they have to feed with coins, the charges for these metres are more than the charge for paying by direct debit, I know it costs the companies more but give low income families a break, they need the help.

I often wonder with my own job, what I like is the diversity, we'll always have business paying in (I hope) but it's the older people who come in every week with their cheque book to draw out the same amount every week in the same denominations, it's nice to see them though. For some of them it's someone to talk to, but I forgot, I'm not there to chat but to serve quickly and efficiently and move on to the next person in the queue and try to make sales.

[Ollie]

I've only had interest in the early '30s rise for Hitler, him playing off German industrialists that were traditional enemies-competitors to each other, and Hitler bouncing between them, secretly taking money from one side on promises he'd 'do in' their competitors, only to take more money from the others to double cross everyone else. How could they delude themselves into believing they'd control this person? And how could the Germans stand to listen to this little Austrian proclaim himself as the leader of the blond, blue-eyed Aryans? To me, that 1929-1935 segment is pretty interesting. I've understood the English-French head-in-the-sand wishful-thinking routine - who doesn't want to pull the covers over their head occasionally and wish the world was a better place?

Could Neville Chamberlain ever anticipated his name would carry such a lowly value in modern history, though? He may still be generations away from being unfastened from any derogatory phrase using "appeasement" in it. I don't think Pétain carries nearly the negativity that the name "Chamberlain" conjures. Maybe Christine could argue this point.

I think that, in all of these cases - the German industrialists, the Brit and French gov'ts and leaders - they were all looking for economic improvements. While the Arms Industry has been an ages-old factor in wealth, I also think Transportation Systems could lead to just as much or more. I've wondered what would happen if the German industrialists had forced Hitler into automotive adventures (what a used car salesman, Adolf!!) instead of going along with military induction.

When I think of seeing the newest of technology being tethered at the end of a lowly telephone line, I had to appreciate THAT as the choice of that gov't and those industrialists. I'm certain they're also exploiting the Arms Industry, too, but at least they wanted to use credit as a method to link today's lifestyle into tomorrow's economy.

[klondike]

I've only had interest in the early '30s rise for Hitler, him playing off German industrialists that were traditional enemies-competitors to each other, and Hitler bouncing between them, secretly taking money from one side on promises he'd 'do in' their competitors, only to take more money from the others to double cross everyone else.

Let us not forget the six-figure sums that our own Henry Ford (by Adolf's own proud admission: "The man who is my single greatest inspiration!") regularly poured into Hitler's coffers from 1935 through the Spring of '42.

How could they delude themselves into believing they'd control this person? And how could the Germans stand to listen to this little Austrian proclaim himself as the leader of the blond, blue-eyed Aryans?

Toward those very ends of ethnocentric distinction, check out a very curious little film from 1968 called The Shoes of the Fisherman, especially if you plan to catch the sensational new Angels & Demons this summer!

To me, that 1929-1935 segment is pretty interesting. I've understood the English-French head-in-the-sand wishful-thinking routine - who doesn't want to pull the covers over their head occasionally and wish the world was a better place?

Oddly enough, it was in a desire to avoid just such lethal passivity that the appeasement-minded French leaders volunteered their submission via the Vichy Accords!

Could Neville Chamberlain ever anticipated his name would carry such a lowly value in modern history, though? He may still be generations away from being unfastened from any derogatory phrase using "appeasement" in it. I don't think Pétain carries nearly the negativity that the name "Chamberlain" conjures.

Likely not, but Quisling sure does, and then some! I guess you know you've betrayed your countryman when your very surname becomes a synonym for traitor!

I think that, in all of these cases - the German industrialists, the Brit and French gov'ts and leaders - they were all looking for economic improvements. While the Arms Industry has been an ages-old factor in wealth, I also think Transportation Systems could lead to just as much or more . . When I think of seeing the newest of technology being tethered at the end of a lowly telephone line, I had to appreciate THAT as the choice of that gov't and those industrialists. I'm certain they're also exploiting the Arms Industry, too, but at least they wanted to use credit as a method to link today's lifestyle into tomorrow's economy.

Ollie, right along those very lines, I often ponder just how it was ever condoned as lawful that a man elected to the Vice Presidency could also be the publicly-known majority stockholder for major military contractors like Haliburton & Blackwater, and then after 2 years in office, viewed as morally objective in promoting the hostile, armed forces invasion of a foreign nation.

[charliechaplinfan]

Didn't J F Kennedy write a book or thesis called While England Slept?

I have many questions about this time period, there are so many factors that made Hitlers rise possible. I suppose my biggest questions are why was anyone surprised when Hitler actually did the things he set out in Mein Kampf? How did an Austrian rise to be number 1 in Germany? My biggest question has always been how could so many people carry out the worst of his policies? It would have required the connivance of so many.

Re Chamberlain, I think Europe had been so scarred by WW1 that it went to far in appeasing Hitler. Chamberlain was used to working with old boy network were a man's word was his bond but not so with Hitler. Chamberlain's view was not a minority view in Britain, I think Britain was just so releived to get that piece of paper. Hitler wasn't the only man in history who had ever gone against his word, if my education serves me correctly it was the same tactic used by BIsmarck in his negotitations with Austria and Russia.

[Ollie]

The Hitler Lies vs. Hitler Tells Truths is an interesting paradox. He did so much lying to gain appeasable goals, yet as Alison points out, MEIN KAMPF seems to give repeated clear indications. They wouldn't believe what he wrote, but they'd believe him when his lips moved.

And Alison, to Hitler's biggest fans (but obviously NOT to his inside helpers), how could they foam-at-the-mouth about nationalism and how great it was, and THEN accept this "cousin"? Fortunately for Heir Adolf, he was able to squash all attempts to trace his true ancestry. But it's surprising that some of those SS investigators actually lived. Stalin would have never allowed them to - he never let someone have inside knowledge about him and live to use it against him.

As for the Henry Ford characterization, check out who the bankers were that kept funding and passing funds into Europe, into Switzerland and into Munich and Berlin. The Bush Family. It's no accident that Sonny-boy George was shipped far, far away from so many family ties on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Even Daddy Joseph Kennedy didn't achieve that!

But to me, the voters are still the most astounding group of never-understandables!

[charliechaplinfan]

Someone touched on Henry Ford sending money to Germany, the date ended at 1942 but this is after America entered the war, how did he get away with it?

[Ollie]

I suspect "very easily" is the answer. The Bush Family had been bankers for many generations on both sides of the Atlantic, and were tied back to more ancient dynasties as "money changers". I'm sure sending money to a Swiss bank was tolerated, and from there, sending it into Vichy wouldn't be difficult. Vichy is German for "mine", right? I think so.

[Ollie]

I think the "money" issue, while it was raised as this topic's original point, remains a fascinating lifeblood. In some migrations, peoples have moved without wealth and hoped for the best as either invaders or frontier explorers. The next step is to bring money. I was showing my naiveté in believing that a gov't could move into its interior countryside and establish 'civilized services' without first establishing a monetary network. It did sort of remind me of the SGT YORK ending where Alvin's calling from his Manhattan hotel and everyone's collected at the general store for the county's one telephone. "Somewhere has to be first, so... bar-code scanning it is." I guess Alvin's too busy workin' his bottomland anyway.

[klondike]

Someone touched on Henry Ford sending money to Germany, the date ended at 1942 but this is after America entered the war, how did he get away with it?

The attack on Pearl Harbor initiated a declaration of war by the US againt the Japanese Empire only, even though the commonality of goals between the Axis Powers was pretty much a newsreel-supported "given".
If I am remembering my "big chunks" correctly, the US declared war against Germany the following Spring, triggered principly by the passenger ship Lusitania being torpedoed by a U-boat just off the southern coast of Ireland.
I really am pretty sketchy on those events, so if anybody knows facts to the contrary, don't hesitate to speak up.
An interesting bit of minutia: the League of Iroquois Nations (which holds citizenship in both Canada & the US) actually announced their own declaration of war against Nazi Germany before the official proclamation from FDR, and made a stated point of never officially recognizing the surrender of Germany's National Socialist government, insisting even now that an official state of war still exists with that political entity.
Now you know why I never argue with my wife beyond a certain point!