A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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ken123
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

Post by ken123 »

stuart.uk wrote:Ken

I think John Major was PM during the first Gulf war. While I think The Falklands War turned Margaret Thatcher from an unpopular PM to a popular one, Argentina still invaded the island, which was a British province in Argentine waters.
Shortly after Mrs. Thatcher bullied Bush into the Iraq war, the Tories dumped her in favor of Major. Diplomacy could have been attempted in the Falklands affair, but war is easier and ( almost ) always helps the party in power.Thatcher won by winning 43 - 44% of the vote and a large majority in the Commons. She was then allowed to continue her war on the British people and win the admiration of mammon. Most of the media are tools of the ruling class, with a very few exceptions. Class warfare is from the top down, and the top is winning.

Debt reduction is done best by job creation and a fair tax system. If the limits on Social Security taxes were raised to include all income the system would be more than solvent for a hundred years. IMHO most rightwing parties try to reduce debt on the backs of middle class and lower ( income ) classes. Watch out for great cutbacks in essential services. War - always plenty of money , on the other hand,health, education, welfare can always be reduced or eliminated. The Presidents Commision on deficit reduction is loaded with millionaires & billionaires who want to dictate to the rest of us that we must face dracionian cuts and NO tax increases for them. :(
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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I was wondering about the American system of a possible President running for office with a Vice P on his ticket. One of the major worries when Labour was talking to the Liberals was if it came off we would have had a second successive unelected Prime Minister. While we have deputy leaders, they're not given the same profile as Vice Presidents. It occurred to me if Gordon Brown's deputy Harriet Harmon had been shall we say on the same ticket, maybe there wouldn't have been the same fuss. I hope that makes sense
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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Alison

I'm a bit peefed off at right wing Tory's and di-hard Labour MPs claiming what's happening is undemocratic and hoping for another election within the next yr.

Though not a Tory myself I hope the coalition is given a chance. I'm all for a change in the voting system, hoping for PR. If this coalition is only reasonably successful, then it'll prove coalition Goverment. I hope that Scotland doesn't turn its back on the Liberal's as a result. In fact even with the Tory Lib pact at Westminster, I still think a Lab Lib pact would work in next yrs new Scottish Goverment in Edinburgh
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ken123
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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stuart.uk wrote:I was wondering about the American system of a possible President running for office with a Vice P on his ticket. One of the major worries when Labour was talking to the Liberals was if it came off we would have had a second successive unelected Prime Minister. While we have deputy leaders, they're not given the same profile as Vice Presidents. It occurred to me if Gordon Brown's deputy Harriet Harmon had been shall we say on the same ticket, maybe there wouldn't have been the same fuss. I hope that makes sense
I would guess not. After 13 years in office The Labor Party was repudiated, IMHO nothing could have saved them. On the other hand the Tories were not given any sort of mandate, they received between 36 - 37 % of the vote. Hopefully the Liberals,by being in coalition, will be able to moderate the Conservatives & steer them away from Thatcherism.
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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I agree Ken. What I was getting at though if Harmon took over as leader during the talks, under the more American system of Vice presidents, whether it would mean no-one could complain that she was trying to be an unelected Prime Minister, as she was part of the Brown ticket. That said I agree Labour were down and out anyway.

Not that I'd be to keen on Harriet Harmon, who's not standing for the leadership, anyway. A bit to feministic for my tastes. It's a pity the great late Mo Mowlam isn't still alive and in full health. She would have been a great Labour leader
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ken123
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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IMO any Lib - Lab coalition was doomed to failure, because both parties lost seats in Parliament, even though the Liberals percentage went up by 1 %. The people of Great Britian may not have wanted the 36 - 37% Tories, but thy sure did not want Labor. The Lib - Lab coalition, with Welsh, Scots Nationalist and the single Green member, as added Commons votes was likely to lose a confidence vote, with new elections ( likely in the first year ) and the Tories getting a big majority, with well less than 50% of the vote, and I fear that the Thatcher wing of the Tories will have free rein.
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ken123
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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I was just watching the BBC, the pound is down and the fear is, accoring to the commentators, that the new government is going to pay to much attention to deficit reduction and not enough to job creation & growth. IMHO the economy must be growing before there is any talk about reducing the debt. Austerity will only make things much worse.
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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ken123 wrote:I disliked the liar and war criminal Blair and the middle class destroyer Thatcher. Mrs. Thatcher also arranged the phoney war in The Falklands and bullied Bush41 into the first Iraqi War :cry:
Do you class GW as a war criminal and liar too?

As for Mrs Thatcher, I do think you have some facts wrong. Mrs Thatcher was no enemy of the middle class and she was not in power when the Gulf War started. The Falklands is a matter of opinion.

Stuart, I heartedly disagree with you about the 3rd televised debate, I thought Gordon Brown came in a dismal third. The other two are more polished and have more charm and he was pushed into third place by bad policies and a personality that didn't suit the TV debates.

What I do like is that we can have a perfectly civil conversation, even though we rarely agree :)

I've just watched David Milliband announcing himself as a candidate for leader of the Labour party, I can't see that he has any charisma. I'm not trying to be down on Labour, I want to see a charismatic leader of the opposition to make politics interesting again, I'll have to watch more.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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ken123
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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Major was PM after Mrs Thatcher bullied Bush41 into the war. Major was PM after the Tories ousted Mrs Thatcher after she talked President Bush into going to war. This war was also a prop to reelect the horrible Mr. Bush who had no positve acccomplishments as President.

Bush43 was certainly a liar and war criminal. Mrs. Thatchers tax policies and general cut backs did harm the middle class. Her deregulation policy showed IMHO her love for her mammonish supporters. She was always again IMHO a spokeswoman for privilege.
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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Alison

I think we have similair tastes in movies, it's just politics that we seem to disagree on, but in a friendly manner

I think it would have been interesting if Glenda Jackson had threw her name into the hat. Another Labour MP also a female I like is Kate Hoey, the former Minister of Sport in Blair's first Cabinet. If I remember Kate, Glenda and Mo Mowlam, my fav all time MP, all disagreed with Blair and the Iraq war at a time when it wasn't fashionable to do so
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charliechaplinfan
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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ken123 wrote:I was just watching the BBC, the pound is down and the fear is, accoring to the commentators, that the new government is going to pay to much attention to deficit reduction and not enough to job creation & growth. IMHO the economy must be growing before there is any talk about reducing the debt. Austerity will only make things much worse.
Well, you're watching a different BBC to me and I can't see a word about it on the website and can find reports to the contrary on the internet. You can't read too much into a variation in the market and the commentators are ten a penny.

There has been an enormous amount of wasted expenditure in Britain which needs to addressed, this is what the coalition is addressing. Quite frankly we can't afford to wait until the economy is growing before reducing the debt, the economy could be stagnant for a while yet. No one has mentioned austerity measures, we aren't alone in the debt crisis but are finding ways to deal with it, these measures need to be taken quickly to address the wastage and encourage the growth of our economy.

Ken, it strikes me that your very good at a being dismissive and pessimistic and never offer an optomistic opinion and I don't just refer to this thread. I find it tiresome that you put bullet points that aren't very well researched or explained in such a negative way. This is our government and our democracy which I feel very proud of, I'd like it if you could at least address British politics with a bit more respect.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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ken123
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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charliechaplinfan wrote:
ken123 wrote:I was just watching the BBC, the pound is down and the fear is, accoring to the commentators, that the new government is going to pay to much attention to deficit reduction and not enough to job creation & growth. IMHO the economy must be growing before there is any talk about reducing the debt. Austerity will only make things much worse.
Well, you're watching a different BBC to me and I can't see a word about it on the website and can find reports to the contrary on the internet. You can't read too much into a variation in the market and the commentators are ten a penny.

There has been an enormous amount of wasted expenditure in Britain which needs to addressed, this is what the coalition is addressing. Quite frankly we can't afford to wait until the economy is growing before reducing the debt, the economy could be stagnant for a while yet. No one has mentioned austerity measures, we aren't alone in the debt crisis but are finding ways to deal with it, these measures need to be taken quickly to address the wastage and encourage the growth of our economy.

Ken, it strikes me that your very good at a being dismissive and pessimistic and never offer an optomistic opinion and I don't just refer to this thread. I find it tiresome that you put bullet points that aren't very well researched or explained in such a negative way. This is our government and our democracy which I feel very proud of, I'd like it if you could at least address British politics with a bit more respect.

I know what I saw on the BBC election channel. It seems to me that saying something, contrary to popular opinion, is not pessimistic, just a contrary opinion What does respect have to do with anything ? Disagreement is not disrepectful. If that was the case I would be the most disrepectful person in the USA toward US politics. Saying a possible policy is wrong and offering an alternative, a policy that is no large scale cuts and continue job grow is NOT pessimistic, its an alternative policy. Nothing more or less.
This thread was started by me and is no way a " bullitt point " is was positive about a possible Liberal Democrat surge at the polls.
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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Alison

I gather Kate Hoey is going to work with Tory Mayor Boris Johnson on the London 2012 games. I guess the Lab-Tory pact can work in certain circumstances Lol
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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Alison

One of the reasons I liked Brown in the 3rd debate I had watched Churchill's Bodyguard earlier in the day. Now I'm not 100% sure of this, but Winston made financial speeches all over American during the great depression and seemed to be saying much the same as Brown was regarding the credit crunch. When I said I thought Gordon won the debate, I felt it was a close run thing bewteen the 3 of them
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Re: A Liberal Comeback in the UK ?

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stuart.uk wrote:Alison

I'm a bit peefed off at right wing Tory's and di-hard Labour MPs claiming what's happening is undemocratic and hoping for another election within the next yr.

Though not a Tory myself I hope the coalition is given a chance. I'm all for a change in the voting system, hoping for PR.
I couldn't agree more, which is unusual for us, not sure on the PR question though :wink: I liked Mo Mowlem too, if she were still around and in fine fettle I'm sure she'd be playing a big part.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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