Noir Alley

[Bronxgirl48]

Hi Bronxie! Glad to see you're feeling better now. Welcome back.

And in regard to this question of yours here...

I cannot get over the medieval punishment he receives in post-WWII England. Were they really whipping first-time offenders with cat-o-nine tails in 1948?

...I'd say Burt's character would have probably been one of the very last to have suffered this type of punishment, as it seems according to what I was able to find on the internet, this practice was surprisingly only abolished in England the same year of 1948 that this film was released.

From the Wikipedia page entitled "Flagellation":
In some circumstances the word flogging is used loosely to include any sort of corporal punishment, including birching and caning. However, in British legal terminology, a distinction was drawn (and still is, in one or two colonial territories[citation needed]) between flogging (with a cat o' nine tails) and whipping (formerly with a whip, but since the early 19th century with a birch). In Britain these were both abolished in 1948.

Hi, Dargo, thanks so much.

Wow, that is mind-boggling. I always associate flogging/whipping with the British Navy in the 18th century or thereabouts.....Captain Bligh, Billy Budd, etc.

I wonder if there would have been such a scene had Robert Donat, who was considered instead of Lancaster, played the role. Probably not. (interestingly, in GOODBYE, MR. CHIPS Donat canes a student)

[Hibi]

I saw KISS THE BLOOD OFF MY HANDS years ago but (mercifully) hardly remembered any of it. Seeing it Sunday morning after all that time made me realize why, lol. Outre, bizarre, awkward, silly, just plain weird. The cinematography is outstanding, though, and certainly contributes to the overall surreal, nightmarish quality of the story. "Sure, Burt, come right in through my window as I'm sleeping, do some gentle, goofy terrorizing then greet me politely the next day with "Hello, would you like to go on a date?"

I cannot get over the medieval punishment he receives in post-WWII England. Were they really whipping first-time offenders with cat-o-nine tails in 1948?

That was indeed shocking, brutal for a 1948 film and brutal for a civilized country in 1948.

Well they were still hanging people in England in the early 60s!

[Bronxgirl48]

Burt, being the professional he was, insisted that only an authentic whipping could produce the facial contortions he
wanted to make the whole thing look real in KTBOMH. In the name of practicality he did agree to a cat o' nine tails lite.

Lancaster was known for executing his own stunts throughout his career and in Kiss the Blood Off My Hands he wanted to perform the cat o' nine tails whipping scene as authentically as possible. He knew that his facial expression could never replicate the pain unless he was truly experiencing lashing and he insisted that actor Harold Goodwin (playing the role of the whipper) "really lay it on him". The scene was not done with an actual leaded cat o' nine tails, but rather with a split leather belt. Still, Lancaster's back was so blistered and welted the next day that he was unable to wear a shirt.
{Wiki}

Wiki has a very long entry on KTBOMH which covers every aspect of the movie.

Eeeeek! I am assuming it only took one take.

[Bronxgirl48]

HANGOVER SQUARE is an old favorite of mine. An excellent period melodrama-thriller but in my opinion it does not qualify as noir (and I have an expansive interpretation of this genre that goes beyond the hard-boiled detectives and dames scenario) For me, George Harvey Bone's obsession with Netta Longdon is not fatalistic -- he is just a very sick individual who cannot help his murderous rages.

George's obsession was in the completion of the concerto. That was what was fatalistic; anyone that got in the way had to be dealt with. We see that at the end. What is unrealistic is that the Doctor doesn't. I.e. if he would have let George go and perform his concerto, George would have gone quietly to a mental facility. But then we would not have had that one-for-the-books ending.

Great points I hadn't immediately thought of, james. So do you think HANGOVER SQUARE could be considered noir?

[Bronxgirl48]

I saw KISS THE BLOOD OFF MY HANDS years ago but (mercifully) hardly remembered any of it. Seeing it Sunday morning after all that time made me realize why, lol. Outre, bizarre, awkward, silly, just plain weird. The cinematography is outstanding, though, and certainly contributes to the overall surreal, nightmarish quality of the story. "Sure, Burt, come right in through my window as I'm sleeping, do some gentle, goofy terrorizing then greet me politely the next day with "Hello, would you like to go on a date?"

I cannot get over the medieval punishment he receives in post-WWII England. Were they really whipping first-time offenders with cat-o-nine tails in 1948?

That was indeed shocking, brutal for a 1948 film and brutal for a civilized country in 1948.

Well they were still hanging people in England in the early 60s!

In America too -- with those IN COLD BLOOD killers I think.

[Hibi]

Yep. Some states did.

[Andree]

Eeeeek! I am assuming it only took one take.

I would hope so for Burt's sake. Wouldn't it have been one of those funny old Hollywood pranks if Kirk had snuck
onto the set and started giving Burt a whipping.

[jamesjazzguitar]

HANGOVER SQUARE is an old favorite of mine. An excellent period melodrama-thriller but in my opinion it does not qualify as noir (and I have an expansive interpretation of this genre that goes beyond the hard-boiled detectives and dames scenario) For me, George Harvey Bone's obsession with Netta Longdon is not fatalistic -- he is just a very sick individual who cannot help his murderous rages.

George's obsession was in the completion of the concerto. That was what was fatalistic; anyone that got in the way had to be dealt with. We see that at the end. What is unrealistic is that the Doctor doesn't. I.e. if he would have let George go and perform his concerto, George would have gone quietly to a mental facility. But then we would not have had that one-for-the-books ending.

Great points I hadn't immediately thought of, james. So do you think HANGOVER SQUARE could be considered noir?

Generally I try to avoid the noir\not noir classification. Hangover Square has some noir themes, as well as visuals. That being said, if I was writing a book on Film Noir I would not list Hangover Square in the main section of the book. Instead I would feature it in the appendix as a period-film that has noir themes.

This is what the book Film Noir (Ward \ Silver), does: In the appendix it has western films with noir themes (Blood on the Moon, Perused), comedies (Unfaithfully Yours), etc...

[EP Millstone]

Generally I try to avoid the noir\not noir classification. Hangover Square has some noir themes, as well as visuals. That being said, if I was writing a book on Film Noir I would not list Hangover Square in the main section of the book. Instead I would feature it in the appendix as a period-film that has noir themes.

This is what the book Film Noir (Ward \ Silver), does: In the appendix it has western films with noir themes (Blood on the Moon, Perused), comedies (Unfaithfully Yours), etc...

And yet, the same authors (Alain Silver and James Ursini, along with Elizabeth Ward and Robert Porfirio) make no such distinction in FILM NOIR The Encyclopedia. In that 2010 tome, published by Overlook Duckworth, Hangover Square is an unqualified and unequivocal entry (as is The Lodger).

[laffite]

I enjoyed BLOOD OFF MY HANDS but could not always take it seriously. I agree with someone that Joan tried to play it a little too nonchalant in the beginning and I wondered whether she had a feel for the role, but she came on strong at the last, especially helpful in that she had more to do. A weird parallel came to mind regarding Burt and AudreyH. Here the former quite a splash with screen appearance in an early role, and the latter the same with Roman Holiday. Just a few years apart to help usher in the post-war era. The pair of scissors as a murder weapon made me chuckle, who could not think of Dial M? Newton was fine of course, but the role seems so Taylor-Made for him that the performance had a phoned-in quality about it or perhaps more fair, it came too easy. If Burt's performance seemed a little green, it was overcome by sheer physically and energy, added to by a stunning new face. He even had a bare upper torso scene which should thrill any of the ilk of woman in thrall to such things. Better even than a t-shirt scene (semi-private joke).

I liked the ending where they decide to face the music.

This reminded me of Port of Call Ingmar Bergman. This film was a little more salient because the two protagonists were much younger

and would have been more expected to run away

. It was moving and a bit of a feel-good quality.

[jamesjazzguitar]

Generally I try to avoid the noir\not noir classification. Hangover Square has some noir themes, as well as visuals. That being said, if I was writing a book on Film Noir I would not list Hangover Square in the main section of the book. Instead I would feature it in the appendix as a period-film that has noir themes.

This is what the book Film Noir (Ward \ Silver), does: In the appendix it has western films with noir themes (Blood on the Moon, Perused), comedies (Unfaithfully Yours), etc...

And yet, the same authors (Alain Silver and James Ursini, along with Elizabeth Ward and Robert Porfirio) make no such distinction in FILM NOIR The Encyclopedia. In that 2010 tome, published by Overlook Duckworth, Hangover Square is an unqualified and unequivocal entry (as is The Lodger).

My version of the book was published before 2010, (I can not find the date since the book has fallen apart and the first few pages are misplaced) and the "H" sections starts off with The Harder They Fall, and then He Ran All The Way, etc.. I.e. there is no Hangover Square.

But yea, I did know the book has had many revisions.

[jamesjazzguitar]

Delete

[EP Millstone]

My version of the book was published before 2010 . . . and the "H" sections starts off with The Harder They Fall, and then He Ran All The Way, etc.. I.e. there is no Hangover Square . . .

In the Preface to the 4th Edition (published in 2010), it is stated that the appendices were removed to make the encyclopedia easier to use.

[Bronxgirl48]

Eeeeek! I am assuming it only took one take.

I would hope so for Burt's sake. Wouldn't it have been one of those funny old Hollywood pranks if Kirk had snuck
onto the set and started giving Burt a whipping.

I could believe it, lol -- the start of their friendly competitive rivalry.