Alison my dear,
Why do I want so very badly to visit the UK? Just to be able to listen to people speak the English language in the manner it was intended! When I read your postings and come across colloquialisms like "Mum" instead of our "Mom," and others far too numerous to mention, it simply knocks me for a loop! I find it so very appealing and so vastly different from the English that far too many of us on this side of the Atlantic have come to use as a matter of course. Sometimes it seems that there's a lot to what Mr George Bernard Shaw said: that "We are two peoples divided by a common language!" The English language, when used correctly, can be every bit as beautiful as any of the romance languages like French or Italian. More's the pity that we've abandoned, for the most part, our ability to speak clearly and even eloquently when the situation arises. Whatever you do, please don't ever try to sound "American!" That would be our distinct loss! Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Clemens and Daniel Webster must surely be spinning in their graves over what's happened to the language that they all used so brilliantly!
All my best regards to you and your family.
Admiringly,
Hollis
Women of the 1940's
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jdb1
Hollis, off on a slight tangent --
the BBC News website has been running a series about British actors speaking with American accents. Apparently, someone in Britain decided to take a poll to find out which actor British people think has the best American accent.
Really??? Why are non-American deciding who speaks American the best? The website has recordings people sent in trying to speak American, and almost all of them are truly terrible -- not even close. I suppose that's what we sound like to them, but it's certainly not what we sound like to us.
The closest approximations came from a man from the Northeast (many people from there who I've heard speak have a rather flat accent, so it's closer to ours); a man from Northern Ireland (well, we have so much Irish in us, naturally our speech is Irish-influenced to a degree); and young woman from Wales (she said she has lived in the US). In short, those whose speech was not the of the type of pronunciation we would associate with "English speech" sounded much more "American."
I thought the whole exercise very funny. And apparently Britons today think that every other word out of our mouths is "You guys."
the BBC News website has been running a series about British actors speaking with American accents. Apparently, someone in Britain decided to take a poll to find out which actor British people think has the best American accent.
Really??? Why are non-American deciding who speaks American the best? The website has recordings people sent in trying to speak American, and almost all of them are truly terrible -- not even close. I suppose that's what we sound like to them, but it's certainly not what we sound like to us.
The closest approximations came from a man from the Northeast (many people from there who I've heard speak have a rather flat accent, so it's closer to ours); a man from Northern Ireland (well, we have so much Irish in us, naturally our speech is Irish-influenced to a degree); and young woman from Wales (she said she has lived in the US). In short, those whose speech was not the of the type of pronunciation we would associate with "English speech" sounded much more "American."
I thought the whole exercise very funny. And apparently Britons today think that every other word out of our mouths is "You guys."
Re: Women of the 1940's
Hey Hollis,Hollis wrote: Is it me? Or did women in general appear softer and more feminine than they do today? Was it the clothing styles? Or the hairstyles? Or is it just a function of today's world in which women have assumed (and rightfully so) many of the once traditionally male roles in society?
Bear in mind, I'm speaking as a male....
In terms of dress and appearance, yes, there was certainly more distinction in bygone years than there seems to be today. Women almost always wore dresses and (depending on the era we're referring to) nylons, girdles, bullet bras, heavy makeup, spent hours on their hair, etc. I'll go out on a limb and say that women generally don't go as "all out" as they did in the past.
But in terms of attitude, I think women have always run the gamut. Speaking in terms that we would all be familiar with - motion picture actresses - you had your more "feminine" types like Grace Kelly, Greer Garson, Vivien Leigh, Joan Fontaine, Loretta Young, Mary Pickford....and then there were the stronger, more self-assured ladies like Joan Blondell, Katharine Hepburn, Roz Russell, Joan Crawford, Barbara Stanwyck, all of whom had a quick wit and a backbone of steel. And perhaps these more confident women didn't lift weights or wear jeans in their day, but they were instrumental in smashing that old chestnut that men are rational and women irrational. And I think the same divide exists today, but the difference lies in the fact that society (for the most part) seems more aware and willing to accept that women can do anything men can do.
My two cents...
-Stephen
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charliechaplinfan
- Posts: 9040
- Joined: January 15th, 2008, 9:49 am
You guys.......sorry Judith. Do we really think that, I suppose some of us must do. I haven't come across the American accents. I'm notoriously bad at recognising accents. I just don't hazard a guess to where people come from in case I cause offence 
Hollis, you say such nice things about my native language. American culture does have quite an influence on us over here. We do pick up phrases. I suppose you pick up what you expose yourself to, I watch relatively little TV or modern films, spend my leisure time either posting here, watching classic movies or reading. Hopefully this helps me in my command of the Queens English.
There are spellings in American that make more sense, for instance colour/color why do we have that extra u? I've no idea, they way you spell it is perfectly adequate and uses less letters. I think over the last century many 'Americanisms' will have crept into our language. I do like how language evolves over a period of time.
Just one last thought on using forums. This is only my second foray into forums and I'm very happy here. I just wish I'd know about forums when I was expecting my second child. I'd decided to take both maternity leave and then a career break to be at home whilst the children were very young and my brain stagnated. Once I found a place to post, I could use the old grey matter again. At first it was hard to be erudite or correct as I wanted to be but with everything the more you practice the better you get.
Hollis, you say such nice things about my native language. American culture does have quite an influence on us over here. We do pick up phrases. I suppose you pick up what you expose yourself to, I watch relatively little TV or modern films, spend my leisure time either posting here, watching classic movies or reading. Hopefully this helps me in my command of the Queens English.
There are spellings in American that make more sense, for instance colour/color why do we have that extra u? I've no idea, they way you spell it is perfectly adequate and uses less letters. I think over the last century many 'Americanisms' will have crept into our language. I do like how language evolves over a period of time.
Just one last thought on using forums. This is only my second foray into forums and I'm very happy here. I just wish I'd know about forums when I was expecting my second child. I'd decided to take both maternity leave and then a career break to be at home whilst the children were very young and my brain stagnated. Once I found a place to post, I could use the old grey matter again. At first it was hard to be erudite or correct as I wanted to be but with everything the more you practice the better you get.
Last edited by charliechaplinfan on July 24th, 2008, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
Stephen,
Even with a given allowance for inflation, your two cents has a lot of buying power! Thanks for a well thought out response and in short order as well. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement about women running the gamut from A to Z. In my opinion, women are far less afraid to undertake roles that go against their "type" (see Bette Davis in "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex" as a case in point.) She certainly appeared less than glamorous but her portrayal was as dead on as it could be, and gave an exemplary performance by anyone's standards. I don't know why it is, but women seem to have the ability to make their costars better to a much greater degree than do their male counterparts. Where would Homer and Bart Simpson be if not for Marge and Lisa? I can't recall her name, but it was a woman that was Enrico Fermi's chief statistician during the Manhattan Project, a more than critical position that by his own admission could not have been filled by anyone else. And then there were Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Indira Gandhi. All high profile, highly intelligent and complex women filling roles that a decade or so earlier would have been unheard of. Maybe you've heard of Madame Marie Curie, who gave her life in pursuit of her scientific achievements. Maybe it's time to rethink the old adage that "Behind every successful man is a good woman," and turn it around 180 degrees, "For the times they are a changin'
Your friend,
Hollis
P.S. I hope this post doesn't sound too disjointed, I couldn't seem to keep a coherent thought in my mind. That's probably because there's so much surplus room available! If my mind were a motel, there'd be multiple vacancies for rent!
Even with a given allowance for inflation, your two cents has a lot of buying power! Thanks for a well thought out response and in short order as well. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement about women running the gamut from A to Z. In my opinion, women are far less afraid to undertake roles that go against their "type" (see Bette Davis in "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex" as a case in point.) She certainly appeared less than glamorous but her portrayal was as dead on as it could be, and gave an exemplary performance by anyone's standards. I don't know why it is, but women seem to have the ability to make their costars better to a much greater degree than do their male counterparts. Where would Homer and Bart Simpson be if not for Marge and Lisa? I can't recall her name, but it was a woman that was Enrico Fermi's chief statistician during the Manhattan Project, a more than critical position that by his own admission could not have been filled by anyone else. And then there were Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Indira Gandhi. All high profile, highly intelligent and complex women filling roles that a decade or so earlier would have been unheard of. Maybe you've heard of Madame Marie Curie, who gave her life in pursuit of her scientific achievements. Maybe it's time to rethink the old adage that "Behind every successful man is a good woman," and turn it around 180 degrees, "For the times they are a changin'
Your friend,
Hollis
P.S. I hope this post doesn't sound too disjointed, I couldn't seem to keep a coherent thought in my mind. That's probably because there's so much surplus room available! If my mind were a motel, there'd be multiple vacancies for rent!
Hi Judith,
We Americans have "bastardized" the English Language to a great degree. Granted, language evolves over time, but in my humble opinion, I think we're experiencing a "de-evolution" and it's likely to become worse before it ever becomes better, More's the pity, because when spoken or written properly, it has the capacity to be a truly beautiful language. It can in fact be an art form. Think of your favorite author (mine is John Grisham) and in all likelihood, it's the vocabulary that he or she uses as well as the subject matter that draws you in! Maybe it's TV or radio that's causing it.
Your friend,
Holis
We Americans have "bastardized" the English Language to a great degree. Granted, language evolves over time, but in my humble opinion, I think we're experiencing a "de-evolution" and it's likely to become worse before it ever becomes better, More's the pity, because when spoken or written properly, it has the capacity to be a truly beautiful language. It can in fact be an art form. Think of your favorite author (mine is John Grisham) and in all likelihood, it's the vocabulary that he or she uses as well as the subject matter that draws you in! Maybe it's TV or radio that's causing it.
Your friend,
Holis
Too many words to say so little!
Good afternoon Alison,
Remember, English is my native language as well. I just don't like what we Americans have done to it. I had two excellent role models when it came to developing whatever language skills I may possess. Mom and Dad. Mom was editor of her high school yearbook way back in 1931 and actually had two short stories published in commercial magazines. One in the Reader's Digest and the other in the old Saturday Evening Post, which I don't think is sill in existence. She was talented enough to secure a four year fully paid scholarship to Columbia University in New York City but was unable to avail herself of it because of my grandmother's (a widow) poor health. She decided to remain at home and go to work to support them as her older brother had unexpectedly left home two years earlier for parts unknown and was never heard from again. My father was born and raised on a farm in South Dakota and grew up during the depression (he was five years my mom's junior) and due to very similar circumstances (his dad having passed away before he graduated high school) wasn't able to attend college. Not that he wasn't bright enough, but there was simply no money available for tuition. And as the oldest of six brothers, he was thrust into the role of "man of the house" and was responsible for working and managing the farm. To supplement the family's income, he joined the South Dakota National Guard and when war broke out in 1941, all National Guard units were "Federalized" ans so he became a member of the United States Army. Even without the benefit of an advanced education, he became a voracious reader and was well versed in any number of subjects. He may just have been one of the smartest people I've ever had the privilege of knowing. I've always taken pains to write clearly but I never developed the creative streak which would have allowed me to write for fun or profit. I believe that people judge you (fairly or unfairly) on the way you present yourself in speech and the written word. It upsets me to no end when I hear someone of influence (like George W. Bush) butcher the language the way he does. Nuclear becomes "Nucular" and his speech is interspersed with far too many "uhs," ums," and "ers.") Do you think that there's a chance that the family's fortune may have paid for some of his grades? I find it extremely hard to think of him as a Yale graduate when I hear him speak. Oh, the things that make you go "Hmmm...
Like you, this is only the second forum I've ever contributed to (the other being the TCM boards) and I enjoy it immensely for two reasons. One being the people (like yourself) that it's brought me in contact with and the other is the opportunity to write a little (a lot?) When I'm up to it, I drive over to the Western shore of Mobile Bay and pick up whatever interesting pieces of driftwood I can find and either display them as is (my preferred method) or try and turn them into something else like a lamp base or candle holder or something along those lines. But given the choice between the two, and as much as I enjoy working with my hands, I find this forum to be a far better outlet for whatever creative energies I might possess. I've met (as it were) so many interesting , knowledgeable and funny people by way of these boards that I sometimes force myself to sit here and write even when I know I shouldn't. It's almost become an addiction. Thankfully I've somehow been able to keep it in check. There are about a dozen or so of you that I feel very close to, almost as if we were family. Given that I have no family of my own since my son has estranged himself from us, maintaining contact with the people here at SSO has been a Godsend and a definite link to sanity. One of these days I'll get up the nerve to ask for the screen names people use on their Instant Messenger programs like AOL or Yahoo or MSNBC so we can talk in something that resembles "real time." I've got "SKYPE" installed but haven't yet learned how to use it since until SSO came along there really wasn't anyone to talk to. Well that's enough of my rambling for now as I'm certain you've better things to do with your time than read this trifling message. I don't recall you mentioning your husband's name, although you do have a son named Joseph if memory serves (and maybe others?) But be that as it may, please pass along my warmest regards to them from your friend in "The New World!"
All my best to you and yours...
I remain,
Hollis
Remember, English is my native language as well. I just don't like what we Americans have done to it. I had two excellent role models when it came to developing whatever language skills I may possess. Mom and Dad. Mom was editor of her high school yearbook way back in 1931 and actually had two short stories published in commercial magazines. One in the Reader's Digest and the other in the old Saturday Evening Post, which I don't think is sill in existence. She was talented enough to secure a four year fully paid scholarship to Columbia University in New York City but was unable to avail herself of it because of my grandmother's (a widow) poor health. She decided to remain at home and go to work to support them as her older brother had unexpectedly left home two years earlier for parts unknown and was never heard from again. My father was born and raised on a farm in South Dakota and grew up during the depression (he was five years my mom's junior) and due to very similar circumstances (his dad having passed away before he graduated high school) wasn't able to attend college. Not that he wasn't bright enough, but there was simply no money available for tuition. And as the oldest of six brothers, he was thrust into the role of "man of the house" and was responsible for working and managing the farm. To supplement the family's income, he joined the South Dakota National Guard and when war broke out in 1941, all National Guard units were "Federalized" ans so he became a member of the United States Army. Even without the benefit of an advanced education, he became a voracious reader and was well versed in any number of subjects. He may just have been one of the smartest people I've ever had the privilege of knowing. I've always taken pains to write clearly but I never developed the creative streak which would have allowed me to write for fun or profit. I believe that people judge you (fairly or unfairly) on the way you present yourself in speech and the written word. It upsets me to no end when I hear someone of influence (like George W. Bush) butcher the language the way he does. Nuclear becomes "Nucular" and his speech is interspersed with far too many "uhs," ums," and "ers.") Do you think that there's a chance that the family's fortune may have paid for some of his grades? I find it extremely hard to think of him as a Yale graduate when I hear him speak. Oh, the things that make you go "Hmmm...
Like you, this is only the second forum I've ever contributed to (the other being the TCM boards) and I enjoy it immensely for two reasons. One being the people (like yourself) that it's brought me in contact with and the other is the opportunity to write a little (a lot?) When I'm up to it, I drive over to the Western shore of Mobile Bay and pick up whatever interesting pieces of driftwood I can find and either display them as is (my preferred method) or try and turn them into something else like a lamp base or candle holder or something along those lines. But given the choice between the two, and as much as I enjoy working with my hands, I find this forum to be a far better outlet for whatever creative energies I might possess. I've met (as it were) so many interesting , knowledgeable and funny people by way of these boards that I sometimes force myself to sit here and write even when I know I shouldn't. It's almost become an addiction. Thankfully I've somehow been able to keep it in check. There are about a dozen or so of you that I feel very close to, almost as if we were family. Given that I have no family of my own since my son has estranged himself from us, maintaining contact with the people here at SSO has been a Godsend and a definite link to sanity. One of these days I'll get up the nerve to ask for the screen names people use on their Instant Messenger programs like AOL or Yahoo or MSNBC so we can talk in something that resembles "real time." I've got "SKYPE" installed but haven't yet learned how to use it since until SSO came along there really wasn't anyone to talk to. Well that's enough of my rambling for now as I'm certain you've better things to do with your time than read this trifling message. I don't recall you mentioning your husband's name, although you do have a son named Joseph if memory serves (and maybe others?) But be that as it may, please pass along my warmest regards to them from your friend in "The New World!"
All my best to you and yours...
I remain,
Hollis
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charliechaplinfan
- Posts: 9040
- Joined: January 15th, 2008, 9:49 am
Dear Hollis,
My mother had to look after her father and brother after her mother died, she will know how your parents felt. Nowadays, in England at least we try to get as many people through university as we can (so they won't appear on the jobless registers) getting degrees that in most cases aren't used again. It seems we've gone from one extreme to the other.
It's a real pleasure to be a member of this forum I too feel like I've made some good friends here and I look forward to the time of day when I can sit down knowing that the kids are in bed and chat away and share views. What is supper time for us must be dinner time for most of you. It is a nice addiction to have and unlike many addictions it isn't bad for me or costs too much money, it isn't even bad for my waistline.
How are you getting on coping with the pain? I often think about you when I type away in realitive comfort. It must be so frustrating for you.
You're right about my little boys name being Joe, he's nearly three, he's a big lad, Elizabeth/Libby is his sister who is nearly six and is petite and Chris is my husband's name although I rarely adress him by it, usually it's hubby. He has little interest in film.
Take care
Alison
My mother had to look after her father and brother after her mother died, she will know how your parents felt. Nowadays, in England at least we try to get as many people through university as we can (so they won't appear on the jobless registers) getting degrees that in most cases aren't used again. It seems we've gone from one extreme to the other.
It's a real pleasure to be a member of this forum I too feel like I've made some good friends here and I look forward to the time of day when I can sit down knowing that the kids are in bed and chat away and share views. What is supper time for us must be dinner time for most of you. It is a nice addiction to have and unlike many addictions it isn't bad for me or costs too much money, it isn't even bad for my waistline.
How are you getting on coping with the pain? I often think about you when I type away in realitive comfort. It must be so frustrating for you.
You're right about my little boys name being Joe, he's nearly three, he's a big lad, Elizabeth/Libby is his sister who is nearly six and is petite and Chris is my husband's name although I rarely adress him by it, usually it's hubby. He has little interest in film.
Take care
Alison
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
I think the American language has evolved in an amazing way. Depending on where we live, although we all live within the same boundaries of water, we all speak with different accents, forms of words, and ways to use them. Yet, it all started out with the very formal English our ancestors used in Britain. With all the different owners of the various land masses in our Southwest, West, and Midwest, we have variations all including the French sound, the Mexican sound, the Swedish/Dutch, and don't try to tell a true Southerner this; but their slow, patient way of speaking is directly from their slave factions.
The main thing that drives me crazy about the American language however, is not the way it is spoken, but the way it is written. It may all be spoken differently, but the rules for writing all remain the same. e.g. it's means it is, and its' means something belongs to it. There is a place, Their belongs to those people or things, and they're means they are. These are just a few of the mistakes I see everyday in and on the news and here in posts from people who claim to be college students, graduates, or worse yet, professors!! I get so embarrassed for them. I read in a college freshman English handbook that so few people grasped the meaning of the ownership of the s apostrophe, especially in the case of its', they decided to completely drop the whole idea and let the apostrophe fall where it may. That's a definite shame on us, and I admit to doing it myself sometimes when I'm feeling lazy. It's much easier to type 's than s' for some reason.
We've also done away with a lot of terrific English phrases and words. I love the words perhaps, shan't, and bloody. Perhaps is so much more adult sounding than maybe, and shan't is a fine shortened version of shall not (shall in itself being a vastly ignored word), and bloody is, again, so much more mature than our swear words.
I'm not saying I would want anyone to mess with my language at this point, but I'm sorry we've lost so much of the refined values it had at one time.
That lady from MGM would freak out if she heard what todays' actors have done to the language she worked so hard to instill in actors of her time and during the implementation of sound in movies.
Anne
The main thing that drives me crazy about the American language however, is not the way it is spoken, but the way it is written. It may all be spoken differently, but the rules for writing all remain the same. e.g. it's means it is, and its' means something belongs to it. There is a place, Their belongs to those people or things, and they're means they are. These are just a few of the mistakes I see everyday in and on the news and here in posts from people who claim to be college students, graduates, or worse yet, professors!! I get so embarrassed for them. I read in a college freshman English handbook that so few people grasped the meaning of the ownership of the s apostrophe, especially in the case of its', they decided to completely drop the whole idea and let the apostrophe fall where it may. That's a definite shame on us, and I admit to doing it myself sometimes when I'm feeling lazy. It's much easier to type 's than s' for some reason.
We've also done away with a lot of terrific English phrases and words. I love the words perhaps, shan't, and bloody. Perhaps is so much more adult sounding than maybe, and shan't is a fine shortened version of shall not (shall in itself being a vastly ignored word), and bloody is, again, so much more mature than our swear words.
I'm not saying I would want anyone to mess with my language at this point, but I'm sorry we've lost so much of the refined values it had at one time.
That lady from MGM would freak out if she heard what todays' actors have done to the language she worked so hard to instill in actors of her time and during the implementation of sound in movies.
Anne
Anne
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Wow, Anne. I am one of the confused, I have always used it's for it is and for something belonging to it. I just googled (now there's a word!) and found this:http://www.stormloader.com/garyes/its/#top
according to this site, there is no such word as its' ! Just proves we are one confused bunch of people divided by a common language.
according to this site, there is no such word as its' ! Just proves we are one confused bunch of people divided by a common language.
"Life is not the way it's supposed to be.. It's the way it is..
The way we cope with it, is what makes the difference." ~ Virginia Satir
""Most people pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it." ~ Soren Kierkegaard
The way we cope with it, is what makes the difference." ~ Virginia Satir
""Most people pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it." ~ Soren Kierkegaard
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charliechaplinfan
- Posts: 9040
- Joined: January 15th, 2008, 9:49 am
I'm with you on the use of the apostrophe, although it's years since I was at school. I feel I have a reasonable understanding of where apostrophes should be placed. I don't believe it's really taught in school anymore which is a shame.
One thing that drives me mad is when signs, newspapers, magazines and junk mailers etc get the simple rules wrong. What hope is there for the rest of us. We will get to a point where no one will be sure anymore.
At work I used to write my own letters to send out to my portfolio of customers, none of my younger collagues knew how to do it, as such I used to send these letters to my collagues clients.
I'll make sure my kids are properly schooled in language. Libby has just completed her first year at school and part of her homework was to write something in her writing book every week about her weekend. I supervised to make sure the spelling was correct. That isn't right anymore, Libby told me emphatically that I had not to help, she had to do it herself. Off I went to the teacher to make sure I was right but no the method is to let them do it themselves. Nothing will convince me this is the right approach. Libby has a photographic memory, a bit like me when it comes to spelling but if she's continually doing it wrong she'll get confused. I might be meddling but I'm insisting I teach her the correct way to spell the things she misspells.
If you were a recruiting officer who had to pour over applications all day long, someone who can use English correctly will be thought of as cleverer than someone who has made mistakes.
Maybe it's me......
One other thing I must say is that I an in awe of the members of this forum who's first language is not English. Their English is perfect, I couldn't ever imagine mastering another language to that degree.
One thing that drives me mad is when signs, newspapers, magazines and junk mailers etc get the simple rules wrong. What hope is there for the rest of us. We will get to a point where no one will be sure anymore.
At work I used to write my own letters to send out to my portfolio of customers, none of my younger collagues knew how to do it, as such I used to send these letters to my collagues clients.
I'll make sure my kids are properly schooled in language. Libby has just completed her first year at school and part of her homework was to write something in her writing book every week about her weekend. I supervised to make sure the spelling was correct. That isn't right anymore, Libby told me emphatically that I had not to help, she had to do it herself. Off I went to the teacher to make sure I was right but no the method is to let them do it themselves. Nothing will convince me this is the right approach. Libby has a photographic memory, a bit like me when it comes to spelling but if she's continually doing it wrong she'll get confused. I might be meddling but I'm insisting I teach her the correct way to spell the things she misspells.
If you were a recruiting officer who had to pour over applications all day long, someone who can use English correctly will be thought of as cleverer than someone who has made mistakes.
Maybe it's me......
One other thing I must say is that I an in awe of the members of this forum who's first language is not English. Their English is perfect, I couldn't ever imagine mastering another language to that degree.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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jdb1
I have to go with Nancy on this one: the word "its" is in and of itself a possessive, meaning "belonging to it," and does not need an apostrophe.knitwit45 wrote:Wow, Anne. I am one of the confused, I have always used it's for it is and for something belonging to it. I just googled (now there's a word!) and found this:http://www.stormloader.com/garyes/its/#top
according to this site, there is no such word as its' ! Just proves we are one confused bunch of people divided by a common language.
Grammar lesson:
The apostrophe indicates that something has been left out; in this instance, the letter "e." The archaic form of the possessive in English follows the German structure, and added "es" to a noun to indicate that it was possessed by the subject (it's called the genitive case). In time, the "e" was dropped, but not the final "s", and the apostrophe was inserted to indicate the missing letter.
For example, the German genitive case (my German is pretty poor, I'm afraid, but I do know the grammatical principles involved):
the film's title = der Titel des Filmes
Gradually "Filmes" would turn into "film's" in the English genitive.
The word "its" seems to follow the logic of the possessive, i.e., "his," "hers," "yours," "theirs" - which all end in the letter "s." The word "mine" did, at one time in the distant past take a final "s," but that has changed.
Why any language changes over time is a question for the philosophers.
Dear Nancy,
Remember that everything that's found on the web can't necessarily be taken as gospel. For every entry you may find, there's sure to be some other entry that's entirely contradictory. I've seen the use of "its'" far too often and by some fairly distinguished authors to not think that there's s certain validity to it's usage. Remember too, that before any book makes it to print, it goes through several proofreaders and editors before it's committed to being printed. I've always found it to be a perfectly legitimate variation on a theme. But then again, that's just one (rather small and humble) opinion originating from one (rather small and humble) mind. Maybe the definitive source as to it's legitimacy would be Funk & Wagnall's Dictionary, generally considered to be among the world's finest work of its' kind.
Respectfully and as always,
Your friend, Hollis
Remember that everything that's found on the web can't necessarily be taken as gospel. For every entry you may find, there's sure to be some other entry that's entirely contradictory. I've seen the use of "its'" far too often and by some fairly distinguished authors to not think that there's s certain validity to it's usage. Remember too, that before any book makes it to print, it goes through several proofreaders and editors before it's committed to being printed. I've always found it to be a perfectly legitimate variation on a theme. But then again, that's just one (rather small and humble) opinion originating from one (rather small and humble) mind. Maybe the definitive source as to it's legitimacy would be Funk & Wagnall's Dictionary, generally considered to be among the world's finest work of its' kind.
Respectfully and as always,
Your friend, Hollis
ok you guys.....
I just stumbled thru pages of dictionaries, regarding its. As Geoffrey Rush in Shakespeare in Love was WONT to say...."It's a mystery" Couldn't find one example of ITS'. Lots of IT'S (contraction of it is and it has: It's cold outside, it's been snowing for days)
And isn't this a silly discussion? No matter what, people will use the words as they so choose. 
I just stumbled thru pages of dictionaries, regarding its. As Geoffrey Rush in Shakespeare in Love was WONT to say...."It's a mystery" Couldn't find one example of ITS'. Lots of IT'S (contraction of it is and it has: It's cold outside, it's been snowing for days)
And isn't this a silly discussion? No matter what, people will use the words as they so choose.
"Life is not the way it's supposed to be.. It's the way it is..
The way we cope with it, is what makes the difference." ~ Virginia Satir
""Most people pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it." ~ Soren Kierkegaard
The way we cope with it, is what makes the difference." ~ Virginia Satir
""Most people pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it." ~ Soren Kierkegaard
Hollis
I would say the English or British aren't confined to the same accent. I think it used to annoy some Brits in the past that Americans saw them as all Noel Coward's and Terry Thomas.
Someone, I think Bob Hoskins, once said that before Michael Caine became an actor, you had to be in the RAF to go on the stage (in other words talk posh)
I think it's great these days you can get a newsreader with a regional accent to read the news, compared to the old days when you had to takl proper or you didn't talk at all. In the UK we have a tv presenter called Lorraine Kelly. Lorriane is a Scot's lass, who in her younger days was part of the backroom staff for BBC Scotland's news team. When she approached her boss' regarding presenting, she was told no because of her broad accent. Not long after she joined network breakfast show TV AM and she became a much respected and loved presenter, who now fronts LK On TV for another morning show GMTV
I would say the English or British aren't confined to the same accent. I think it used to annoy some Brits in the past that Americans saw them as all Noel Coward's and Terry Thomas.
Someone, I think Bob Hoskins, once said that before Michael Caine became an actor, you had to be in the RAF to go on the stage (in other words talk posh)
I think it's great these days you can get a newsreader with a regional accent to read the news, compared to the old days when you had to takl proper or you didn't talk at all. In the UK we have a tv presenter called Lorraine Kelly. Lorriane is a Scot's lass, who in her younger days was part of the backroom staff for BBC Scotland's news team. When she approached her boss' regarding presenting, she was told no because of her broad accent. Not long after she joined network breakfast show TV AM and she became a much respected and loved presenter, who now fronts LK On TV for another morning show GMTV