as far as that goes Gilbert's voice was fine... whether it matched his image is subjective to be sure. I never read anything about audience concerns about his voice until after the fact. Neither Rod La Rocque or Charles Farrell had good voices but they worked in talkies for years. How did prissy Ramon Novarro's voice compare with his silent image (BEN-HUR)? Yet Novarro remained a star at MGM.
In my opinion the "voice issue" arose well after the fact. No contemporary reviews made much mention of voice quality of Gilbert in his first talkies. And although both HIS GLORIOUS NIGHT and REDEMPTION flopped, it was because they were lousy films. Even reviews of Gilbert in HOLLYWOOD REVUE OF 1929 don't mention voice problems, but they disliked the "Romeo and Juliet" scene.
Much was made of "voice" by tabloids that delighted in seeing the great idols topple in generally badly made films. Most voice issues had more to do with recording equipment than the actors' voices.
What really stumps me is why contemporary audiences bought the lies about the bad voices. They must have realized that in films like FAST WORKERS, WAY FOR A SAILOR, GENTLEMAN'S FATE, and THE PHANTOM OF PARIS that Gilbert's voice was just fine. These films weren't great but they were not the worst films MGM produced in the early talkie period. Yet audiences stayed away in droves. Rather than there being a voice issue (good tabloid headline stuff), I think it was (as mentioned here) that Gilbert had to change his "romantic" image in order to compete with the rising new stars like Gable, Cagney, and even Robert Montgomery.
What a shame Gilbert didn't get a major MGM production like GRAND HOTEL. He would have been great in the John Barrymore role.
WHAT SILENTS & PRE-CODES HAVE YOU SEEN LATELY?
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myrnaloyisdope
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I think the voice thing was an issue for every actor, otherwise Hollywood wouldn't have sought out stage actors for the early talkies, and no one would have worried about taking voice lessons.
Other than Raymond Griffith, I can't think of any star whose career just ended with the coming of sound. But the distinction must be made between finding regular work, and remaining a star. Most of the stars of the silent era continued on and worked, some for many years, but the majority were unable to maintain their levels of stardom during the silent era.
In some cases there voices may have hindered them, but I think for a lot of silent stars the trouble was finding a niche in the early talkie, and then pre-code era. Norma Shearer was very successful because she went from ingenue to risque woman. Ramon Navarro wasn't because his clean, sweet image didn't translate well into the pre-code era. His accent was no help, but he could have shifted into Ricardo Cortez type roles, but he either didn't get the chance, or he didn't take the chance.
It should also be noted that alot of the stars who get talked about as having failed in adapting to the talkie all had significant personal issues that affected their careers. Clara Bow, John Gilbert, and Marie Prevost among others all had issues with substance abuse that hindered their careers. All 3 could have kept working regularly even if they weren't stars had they been able to take care of themselves.
Other major silent stars who didn't adapt well to talkies generally walked away after several failures like Gloria Swanson, Douglas Fairbanks, and Mary Pickford. But they could have continued working if they wanted too.
Other than Raymond Griffith, I can't think of any star whose career just ended with the coming of sound. But the distinction must be made between finding regular work, and remaining a star. Most of the stars of the silent era continued on and worked, some for many years, but the majority were unable to maintain their levels of stardom during the silent era.
In some cases there voices may have hindered them, but I think for a lot of silent stars the trouble was finding a niche in the early talkie, and then pre-code era. Norma Shearer was very successful because she went from ingenue to risque woman. Ramon Navarro wasn't because his clean, sweet image didn't translate well into the pre-code era. His accent was no help, but he could have shifted into Ricardo Cortez type roles, but he either didn't get the chance, or he didn't take the chance.
It should also be noted that alot of the stars who get talked about as having failed in adapting to the talkie all had significant personal issues that affected their careers. Clara Bow, John Gilbert, and Marie Prevost among others all had issues with substance abuse that hindered their careers. All 3 could have kept working regularly even if they weren't stars had they been able to take care of themselves.
Other major silent stars who didn't adapt well to talkies generally walked away after several failures like Gloria Swanson, Douglas Fairbanks, and Mary Pickford. But they could have continued working if they wanted too.
"Do you think it's dangerous to have Busby Berkeley dreams?" - The Magnetic Fields
Hi Justin,
You're right about there being various reasons many silent actors didn't fully make the transitions to talkies. I can only think of two off the top of my head whose thick accents were a hindrance (at least in the U.S.) and that's Vilma Banky and Emil Jannings. I don't think Jannings even did a sound screen test at his own discretion.
Also, there were some actors who were coming to the ends of their careers anyway around the time sound came into the picture as they had already been working for quite some time and were ready to retire.
Then like you mentioned, some made the transition fine but due to personal problems chose to leave show business. Clara Bow had also said during the 20s that when she got married she would quit b/c she wanted to have a family and be totally devoted to them. She left Hollywood in '33 and her first child was born in '34.
It's neat though to be able to look back at the new crop of actors who came in from the theater to be in the talkies like Barbara Stanwyck (one of my very faves) and Helen Hayes and how they were able to find succes on film. It's also cool to see those who worked in silents but found their greatest success in sound films like Gary Cooper, Carole Lombard, William Powell, Fay Wray and so on and so on
.
You're right about there being various reasons many silent actors didn't fully make the transitions to talkies. I can only think of two off the top of my head whose thick accents were a hindrance (at least in the U.S.) and that's Vilma Banky and Emil Jannings. I don't think Jannings even did a sound screen test at his own discretion.
Also, there were some actors who were coming to the ends of their careers anyway around the time sound came into the picture as they had already been working for quite some time and were ready to retire.
Then like you mentioned, some made the transition fine but due to personal problems chose to leave show business. Clara Bow had also said during the 20s that when she got married she would quit b/c she wanted to have a family and be totally devoted to them. She left Hollywood in '33 and her first child was born in '34.
It's neat though to be able to look back at the new crop of actors who came in from the theater to be in the talkies like Barbara Stanwyck (one of my very faves) and Helen Hayes and how they were able to find succes on film. It's also cool to see those who worked in silents but found their greatest success in sound films like Gary Cooper, Carole Lombard, William Powell, Fay Wray and so on and so on
.“I never really thought of myself as an actor. But I’d learned to ride on my dad’s ranch and I could do some roping stunts and working as an extra was better than starving as an artist nobody wanted on the West Coast.” - Gary Cooper
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drednm
As I said Vilma Banky had a perfectly good voice and accent.
Constance Talmadge is rumored to have tested for a few films but never made a talkie. Her sister Norma became one of the most famous "victims" of sound but although her DUBARRY, WOMAN OF PASSION was a turkey, her NEW YORK NIGHTS was actually a pretty good film and her voice is fine.
Emil Jannings apparently never learned English!
Constance Talmadge is rumored to have tested for a few films but never made a talkie. Her sister Norma became one of the most famous "victims" of sound but although her DUBARRY, WOMAN OF PASSION was a turkey, her NEW YORK NIGHTS was actually a pretty good film and her voice is fine.
Emil Jannings apparently never learned English!
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myrnaloyisdope
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Well there is an English version of The Blue Angel, where he speaks with a very heavy accent. He may have learned the part phonetically, but he does a decent job with it.Emil Jannings apparently never learned English!
"Do you think it's dangerous to have Busby Berkeley dreams?" - The Magnetic Fields
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drednm
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feaito
It happened to me and in one of the strangest situations I can recall.MichiganJ wrote:drednm wrote:Haven’t you ever heard a radio announcer’s voice, and formed a picture in your head as to what he or she looks like, and then seen a picture of them and not believed the face matched the voice? Happens to me all the time. My mind’s eye can’t help but form a picture, and the same is true for my mind’s ear. It’s not like I consciously sit around and conjure up an image when listening to the radio or a voice when watching a silent film, it just happens. It’s always fun when the two “meet”, and I can see how accurate my imagination was; nine times out of ten, I’m not even close.I find it fascinating that people still think John Gilbert's voice "didn't match his silent screen persona." What does that even mean?
Many years go, I talked many times over the phone with the secretary of a lawyer who was part of jurisdictional procedure in which I was participating on behalf of the company I work for, and she had this very sexy, husky type of voice and she was quite bold...besides, she had this Argentinian accent and I had made-up this "idea" of what she looked like, based upon the voice I heard, that was SO very different from what she actually looked like, that I could not believe it when I met her.
I always tend to imagine people with whom I speak over the phone and I have never met, based upon their voices.
I think that it wouldn't have been strange or odd to imagine that many Film fans had made themselves an idea of how their Silent idols' voices would sound. It's quite logical. Given all the hullabaloo that took place when Sound arrived.
I am not saying that Gilbert's demise may have been largely exaggerated blaming his voice. In fact, I read that when some recording techniques were improved Gilbert's and many other actors voices sounded quite different and much better than they had with the first sound recording techniques.
I hope I have made myself clear that John Gilbert had a nice voice and that I've liked him in the talkies I've seen him in.
As a matter of fact a rather average picture such as "Way For a Sailor" (1930) was lifted due to his charm and his devil-may-care performance. He was very likable in it and I really enjoyed this early talkie, in which Leila Hyams had lots of chemistry going on with him. In fact I'd like to see more of his Sound films, like "Downstairs" and "Fast Workers".
Drednm, I agree that Charles Farrell's voice wasn't good and having seen him first in Silents ("Seventh Heaven", "Street Angel", etc.) I can say as matter o fact that I expected a very different voice and when I heard him speak in "Liliom" (1930), what I heard wasn't what I had imagined.
Only as a sidenote Re. Voices, I remember reading in one book that John Ford, referring to Dolores del Río (who's one of my favorite stars and whom I think was one of the most beautiful women ever) said of her:
"As a beauty, Dolores Del Rio is in class with Garbo. Then she opens her mouth and becomes Minnie Mouse." I think Mr. Ford exaggerated.
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drednm
When you're a child you can learn a new language almost over night, but it's not very easy to do that as an adult, and especially not to mimic speaking it fluently. Bela Lugosi was another one who had to learn English phonetically, with his tour of Dracula on stage in the 20's. And he got really typecast after that. It was probably difficult for him to get more versatile roles because of his accent.
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charliechaplinfan
- Posts: 9040
- Joined: January 15th, 2008, 9:49 am
I can relate to visualising how a person looks based on their speaking voice over the radio or telephone, the image very rarely matches the image in my head.
As we are talking about hearing a person's voice for the first time, the surprise for me was hearing Buster Keaton speak, I don't know why I didn't expect him to sound like he does, even though Marta who is from the States and she has told me that he has the right accent for Kansas, it doesn't match in my mind the voice I expect him to have. I can't even describe to you the voice I'd expect him to have just not the one he has.
I've just watched Female, Someone mentioned on here that it has an objectionable ending and I have to agree. I'm all for romantic films but a woman who potentially throws everything away for the right man, all the power and influence she's built up, her workers security. I won't say anymore I don't want to spoil it too much. I did find the majority of it really watchable though, a different take on the female boss and I should imagine quite groundbreaking for it's day. I liked Ruth Chatterton she's a good actress.
As we are talking about hearing a person's voice for the first time, the surprise for me was hearing Buster Keaton speak, I don't know why I didn't expect him to sound like he does, even though Marta who is from the States and she has told me that he has the right accent for Kansas, it doesn't match in my mind the voice I expect him to have. I can't even describe to you the voice I'd expect him to have just not the one he has.
I've just watched Female, Someone mentioned on here that it has an objectionable ending and I have to agree. I'm all for romantic films but a woman who potentially throws everything away for the right man, all the power and influence she's built up, her workers security. I won't say anymore I don't want to spoil it too much. I did find the majority of it really watchable though, a different take on the female boss and I should imagine quite groundbreaking for it's day. I liked Ruth Chatterton she's a good actress.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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Ann Harding
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Yesterday I watched Broken Blossoms (1919) with Gish, Barthelmess and Crisp. It wasn't the first time I have ever seen the film. Far from it! But, it was the first time since the mid-80s that I had a chance to see the Photoplay production with the score by Carl Davis (based on the original Gottschalk score). What a difference it made!!! 
When I first saw Broken Blossoms in 1985, I had been absolutely captivated by its poetry and sensitivity. Later, when I saw various other prints, I had never felt quite the same. Now, I know WHY! It didn't have this wonderful score and on top the quality of the print is so much sharper than anything I have ever seen! 
Thanks so much for that wonderful print, Kyle!!!
When I first saw Broken Blossoms in 1985, I had been absolutely captivated by its poetry and sensitivity. Later, when I saw various other prints, I had never felt quite the same. Now, I know WHY! It didn't have this wonderful score and on top the quality of the print is so much sharper than anything I have ever seen! Thanks so much for that wonderful print, Kyle!!!
The Thames versions of the silent classics sound so wonderful. I can't understand why they haven't been released on DVD!
I haven't had as much time to watch old films or write about them as I would like.
I agree with Annharding though, about Broken Blossoms. At first my favourite Griffith movie was Way Down East, because of the nostalgic feeling it evoked, but now I think his very best film is Broken Blossoms. It's beautiful, and also, I think, unique.
I watched True Heart Susie some time ago. I had a pretty odd reaction to the movie. While I was watching it I thought, "well, apart from Lillian Gish's performance, this isn't really so special, is it?" But then it grew in my estimation the more I thought about it. I like it a bit better than Way Down East now, because even though it isn't as epic as WDE, it also doesn't contain so much aged comic relief. Besides, it's just the right length, and I think it showcases one of Lillian Gish's best, most endearing performances as the stoic, introverted Susie. It was easy to identify with her.
The only trouble I have with the film is the flapper fear, the constant references to "Painted and powdered" women. I remember that from The Painted Lady, from 1912. That aspect of the movie really hasn't aged well, but those were different times, and makeup carried different implications. Overall True Heart Susie is a lovely, quiet little film.
I haven't had as much time to watch old films or write about them as I would like.
I agree with Annharding though, about Broken Blossoms. At first my favourite Griffith movie was Way Down East, because of the nostalgic feeling it evoked, but now I think his very best film is Broken Blossoms. It's beautiful, and also, I think, unique.
I watched True Heart Susie some time ago. I had a pretty odd reaction to the movie. While I was watching it I thought, "well, apart from Lillian Gish's performance, this isn't really so special, is it?" But then it grew in my estimation the more I thought about it. I like it a bit better than Way Down East now, because even though it isn't as epic as WDE, it also doesn't contain so much aged comic relief. Besides, it's just the right length, and I think it showcases one of Lillian Gish's best, most endearing performances as the stoic, introverted Susie. It was easy to identify with her.
The only trouble I have with the film is the flapper fear, the constant references to "Painted and powdered" women. I remember that from The Painted Lady, from 1912. That aspect of the movie really hasn't aged well, but those were different times, and makeup carried different implications. Overall True Heart Susie is a lovely, quiet little film.