Wagon Master (1950) - January 16, 2009 1:00 p.m. EST

[movieman1957]

It always struck me as how matter-of-fact that little scene is. Worden does nothing more than get on the bed. It gets a reaction from Arness in how immediately to offer to kill him. He then stops just at his father's saying his name. Pa Clegg reacted more severely at Worden being on the bed than Arness possibly killing him. Of course, you deal with each child differently.

[ken123]

Well, that was succinct.

Though I'm not crazy about the Cleggs, I do have a favorite scene with them. I absolutely love the part where Pa Clegg, at the Indian dance, is surrounded by his sons. He says threateningly to Travis, "We don't want any trouble with the wagon master..." and Hank Worden, the Clegg son with severe brain damage starts to say something. Pa Clegg roars out, "Get offen my bed!!" and the giant gangling James Arness immediately picks up a huge rock to bean Worden with.... Pa Clegg barely looks up, just says, "Lloyd" and Arness drops the rock. Now we know why Worden is...um ....not right. It cracks me up every time.

Thanks ! My $.02 about da Cleggs - the whip is the key. Movita made me view The Furies yesterday.

[JackFavell]

Chris -

That was sharp - he really does act like Worden has killed someone just for sitting on the bed - and Arness gets this mild, almost bored reaction.... like he's not even paying attention. He could have hit him with the rock before Pa would have even noticed....

some parents.... sadly, I see it all the time at my daughter's school.

[mrsl]

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Well, all week I've been checking my mail as soon as the mail lady leaves because I knew a special member of SSO was sending me a copy of Wagonmaster, and it finally came today. (I won't say who, but leave it up to her/him to let it be known who I'm talking about.) To brew a cup of coffee and get comfy took about 10 minutes from mailbox to DVD player, and I realize I HAVE seen it before. I even taped it. However, since my directions make no sense to me, I do not know how to copy from the factory added DVD to my own DVD and after a while I had to erase the movie. But, this is so great, to have a copy I can put away and pull out whenever I want. The phone must have rung a few times, or someone came over because I don't recall several scenes.

Again I have to comment that all westerns about wagon trains, or cavalry forts should be done in color. I like B&W but those mountain colors are so beautiful. Coming back from Las Vegas, I cried like a baby because I knew I was going to miss those vistas, and I still do.

Ben and Harry Carey, Jr. were so good together that I found myself smiling when they came on screen just because I knew there was going to be some kind of silliness going on. I don't have the imagination to see things in movies like some of you do, so I love to read others impressions. I can only judge the acting, direction and camera work, and what I thought of it. Some actors are so good that you can see things rolling around in their head from their facial expressions, like Audrey Hepburn at the end of Roman Holiday when she knew she had to give Greg up and return to rule her country and how much it was hurting to turn around. However as JackFavell wrote about the youth of the country and the actors young spirits, that is something that I see only when someone points it out to me. I'm going to read these posts again, and watch the movie again tomorrow, because some of it came to me today, and I want to see if I can experience the full scope.

The only thing I did not like was Joanne Dru. Even though it was the fashion of the day, her make-up was too hard - red lips, tightly curled hair, etc. I cannot see Travis being even remotely attracted to her that way, not because she was a saloon girl, but because she looked so hard, she should have had a softer look.

Thank you so much, this is a gem that I will treasure.
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[movieman1957]

Of course it had the obligatory camera shot from in the back of the wagon. I don't think I've seen a western from "The Big Trail" to "Silverado" that didn't have it. I wonder who invented it?

[JackFavell]

Hey, mrsl -

I'm so glad you got the movie, even though you already had it....

It never occurred to me about Joanna Dru's makeup, but yes, I do see that as a little much - I was just watching Madame Bovary, made about the same time period, and was struck by the very same thing, Jennifer Jones makeup in certain scenes was so overdone, the lipstick especially.

Anyway, I still like Joanna Dru's performance A LOT, in fact, I think it's her best performance that I've seen. She really seems very real to me in this one, and I like her interest in Travis, how she tries not to show it, but can't help it. Their scenes together are really lovely, especially that last one where he asks her in not so many words to come with him to his little place in the country. It makes me cry when she runs crying from him and falls, picks herself up, and then gives a quick glance back to see if he is looking.

[ken123]

Ella Raines as Denver - Or is she to tomboyish ?

[JackFavell]

I'll let someone else answer that, since I love Joanna Dru as Denver.

[ken123]

[quote="JackFavell"]I'll let someone else answer that, since I love Joanna Dru as Denver.[
/quote]

Joanne is fine.

[mrsl]

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Hold on for a minute, I didn't mean I didn't like JoAnne Dru, I Should have continued my sentence with, I didn't like JoAnne Dru's hair and makeup. I'm so used to my personal friends who can see me, who know what I mean, that I do that all the time. We've discussed this type of thing before about hair, makeup, and costuming. If you look at the difference between Jeanne Simmons and Carroll Baker in The Big Country, Carroll wears several lovely dresses and culott outfits, where Jean is usually in a blouse and culotts, except for the party of course. But Carroll had servants to work on and for her wardrobe, but Jean did it alone. Their hair styles were also personalized, and their make up was not so pronounced as others made in that time frame.

Anyway, I just wanted to make it clear, I'm not a bit JoAnne Dru fan, but she was okay in WagonMaster.
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[Gary J.]

In the same manner that Hitchcock was later criticized for ushering in the drive-in grind-house, exploitation flicks because of the wild success of "Psycho" - (1960), so too could Ford be given credit for popularizing a western plot element that became a mainstay - the sadistic, backwoods family of murderers. The family that kills together stays together. The Cleggs are an early prototype - even through Ford introduced a similar clan four years earlier in "My Darling Clementine" - (1946). The difference between them are that the Clantons, headed by Walter Brennan, murder for business. They are cattle rustlers by trade. The Cleggs murder because.........it's fun! There is always a lot of cackling going on when these types get down to business. Insanity doesn't run in these families - it gallops. This being 1950 the violence is not as graphic as it will become as the decade progresses but Ford is still able to instill a sense of dread with the first appearance of Pa and his three sons. The camera slowly moves towards them full figured as the celebration at the camp quickly dies out. The two heroes immediately begin looking for their guns. A malevolent air of evil has permeated what had just been a bucolic atmosphere.

It wasn't long before most westerns featured an immoral, wretched gang of ancestral exterminators and everyone from James Stewart to Randolph Scott would eventually have to come face to face with all of them. Boys, meet your maker. The Cleggs and their ilks were at first symbols for the lawless west but as pessimism towards the values that the western film use to extol became degraded by the changing social climate of the 60's, so to did the mayhem as violence was amped up to now include torture, bestiality and hints of incest. As the popularity for westerns waned the 'insane family' would pack up, move and find new life in the horror film genres of the 70's - most famously in "The Texas Chain Saw Massacre" - (1974).

It's ironic that it would be Ford to help introduce such archetypes since his two main themes that are associated with his work through his entire career are respect for the land and love of family. He was an astute man. Maybe he saw the change that was coming to the country he loved.

Gary J.

[JackFavell]

That's very interesting. I am never sure whether the insanity in the Clegg family was inherited, or whether it was due to James Arness' proclivity for throwing large rocks.

I am trying to think if there were any other insane families who kill, ones before My Darling Clementine. I can't really come up with any. Trail of the Lonesome Pine comes to mind, although the Tolivers are very sympathetic, and the Falins have a change of heart at the end of the movie. It does seem that there is always at least one "tetched" person when you get out west or into the woods, and I have to admit, Ford has quite a number of characters sprinkled throughout his films who are offbeat, to say the least. But I think that is because he was a very inclusive director - he wanted as many types as he could get in his movies, to show the diversity of human experience and tolerance (or intolerance, as the case may be). Most of his characters who have some kind of mental problem are more kindly and retain an almost magical quality - one sees what the word "touched" really meant. I am glad though, that he did have so many of those characters, because it means that Hank Worden kept working.

[pvitari]

Brigham Young, starring Dean Jagger in the title role, and Vincent Price as Joseph Smith, dramatizes (in a very Hollywood way) the history of the Mormons and their forced eviction from the various locales they settled in -- until they were run out. Tyrone Power and Linda Darnell (as a lovely non-Mormon maiden) are on hand for some youthful romance.

Hot stuff for 1940!


One of the most outrageous examples of crazy backwoods families are the Peacocks, in the fourth season X-Files episode "Home." Inbreeding, amputation, murder, incest... I remember when that episode aired and the controversy it engendered -- the fan "discussion" practically melted servers all around the country. Glen Morgan and Jim Wong, the writers, were inspired to create their twisted family (believe it or not) by a story in Charlie Chaplin's autobiography. I met Glen and Jim on a number of occasions, and the episode was as pure an example of their sick sense of humor as you'd ever want to see (or maybe not see). :) I'm surprised the network let them get away with it. :) Wikipedia even has a write-up just on this episode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_(The_X-Files)

The Cleggs are amateurs compared to the Peacocks. :)

Chris Carter got most of the credit for what you saw on The X-Files, but a lot of that show -- and a lot of what the fans loved most -- sprang from the minds of Morgan and Wong.

[movieman1957]

I always thought Donald Pleasance in "Will Penny" was a prime example of this type. I cannot come up with an earlier version - yet.

[JackFavell]

Oooh, Donald Pleasance is a direct line right back to he Cleggs. He's gotta be one of the prime examples. He is SO CREEPY.