JOHNNY GUITAR. What a joke!!!

[mrsl]

Has anyone seen this silly film? I saw it years ago but didn't pay a whole lot of attention, but when I saw it last week, I laughed so hard, I almost wet my underwear! Joan Crawford (as Vienna), does a great job as a power player in today's business world, but as a saloon keeper in the Old West, she falls short by a furlong. She never plays it the same - one minute she's the tough 'ruler of her domain', then the next, she's the helpless female. To top the whole movie off, at the end, she's trying to escape from a posse (at night), and she's wearing this white satin dress, which reflects every little speck of moonlight! What a joke!

On the other hand Mercedes McCambridge (Emma), is supposed to be a woman envious of Vienna, but she actually plays a mad woman who gets madder with each scene she's in. (and I don't mean angry, by mad, I mean nuts).

I realize this movie was strictly a showcase for the ladies, Joan & Mercedes, but did the men HAVE to play the complete reversal of roles as the pitiable helpless, inept hangers-on? And the names of the male characters - Dancing Kid, Johnny Guitar, Turkey???!!!

If anything, this movie should have been shown this month on TCM for the Screened Out series because rather than Emmas' jealousy being centered on 'the kid', it seemed to me she was more angered because she couldn't get anywhere with Vienna.

In all, I certainly hope this movie was made with the intention of being a comedy/spoof of Westerns (thereby the role reversals), because I doubt it could be taken as a serious movie, especially a western one.

I prefer my Westerns where men are men and women are women.

Anyone else think like I do?

Anne

[Mr. Arkadin]

Anne, I enjoy Johnny Guitar very much and think it's a great film. It is very different from a conventional western. Nicholas Ray had very different ideas about what he wanted to present. The colors are very bright and vibrant and the film holds some spectacular images.

On my VHS copy, Martin Scorsese gives a brief introduction and talks about how this film really puzzled most American viewers who were expecting a same old familar "shoot em up" western. European audiences however enjoyed the film immensely. I too was surprised it was not part of TCM's screened out series. Perhaps they could not rent the film.

There are lots of layers in this film and it might to take a couple of views to settle into the movie and enjoy it. The first time I saw it, I felt much the same way you did. Lower your expectations and don't come into the film thinking standard western here.

[Dewey1960]

I've seen the incredible JOHNNY GUITAR many, many times and find it to be one of the most fascinating films ever made. I'm a huge fan of the director, Nicholas Ray for a variety of reasons, chief among them his fearless presentation of deep psychological themes combined with the reckless abandonment of emotional common sense. Conflicted and confused issues of sexual identity (JOHNNY GUITAR, REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE), doomed young love (THEY LIVE BY NIGHT, KNOCK ON ANY DOOR, REBEL again) the nature of violence (IN A LONELY PLACE, ON DANGEROUS GROUND, BIGGER THAN LIFE, again REBEL)--these were serious and very personal concerns of Ray's, often mirroring his own troubled life and times.
I understand how JOHNNY GUITAR might be a source of frustration and aggravation for many western fans; it simply does not even remotely conform to anything that came before it. For those who find it to be an impossibly ludicrous film, I can only recommend that they revisit it at some future time, for it's a hauntingly beautiful film with rich rewards at virtually every turn.

[stuart.uk]

Anne

i had a sleepless night on Saturday so i watched two early morning westerns back to back on television. both featured action heroines. the 2nd was Johnny Guitar and while i enjoyed it i take your point she was a tough old girl one minute, holding of Ward Bond's posse in the saloon or killing Mercedes at the end, but there were damsel in distress moments to. i must admit Barbara Stanwyck in her westerns and surprisingly Marilyn with River Of No Return made more convincing action heroines. i thought at times, though in her 50s Joan looked sexy, particulary getting into a pair of pants.

however, in contrast to JG the first film was the underated moder western The Quick And The Dead with Sharon Stone, who though frightened by the situation she found herself in, proved herself a brave action heroine, who kills her father's fast gun killer and frees a town from a tyranical sherif in Gene Hackman

[Ann Harding]

I am with Dewey and Mr Arkadin on this one. I still remember the first time I ever watched Johnny Guitar. I just loved it instantly. I liked its madness, the super vibrant Trucolor process, Joan Crawford and Mercedes MacCambridge's final duel. I suppose the style of the picture can be quite disturbing if you expect a normal western. Personaly, I like movies which are at the frontier of film noir, western and melodrama. The same way, I love King Vidor's The Fountainhead and Beyond the Forest. Their OTT operatic style can be repellent for a lot of people whereas for me, they are perfectly coherent.
I really wonder why Europeans are more receptive to Johnny Guitar. I suppose it comes from our own cultural background, the kind of films and plays we watch, the kind of books we read. We are perhaps more ready to accept a film that deviates from the norme. I know that, myself, being an opera lover, I love films that carry a level of overblown passion visually.

[Dewey1960]

Hi Christine...
Yes, I think your comparing JOHNNY GUITAR to an opera is most accurate. Which probably also explains why Europeans are far more receptive to this film (apparently) than Americans. Wildly florid, emotionally unbridled, this is a film that has no respect or use for conventional boundaries. I think it's sad that some would automatically dismiss it as "silly" or denegrate it as mere "camp." Thanks for being so beautifully articulate about one of my favorite films from my second most favorite director...Nicholas Ray.

[Mr. Arkadin]

Indeed. There are some films we love because they are the epitome of what their genre is. Other films we love such as Johnny Guitar, are those that don't merely seek to copy, but reinvent, redefine, and create something new instead of treading the same old ground.

[Ann Harding]

I don't know if 'camp' is a derogatory term in (American) English but the translation I find in my Oxford French/English dictionary makes it sound really so: exaggerated, effeminate and in bad taste.

I would not call opera 'camp'. It sounds like that if you are unfamiliar the kind of language used by a composer. But, to me, it's just as simple and clear like a play by Shakespeare or Ibsen. The words are uttered singing, but their full meaning are conveyed like a theatre actor would do it. This is what very good opera singers do when they prepare a part: they work on the text. Even if the libretto is not always a great work of literature, each sentence has to be studied in the context of the character and music.

You may feel that the dialogue in Johnny Guitar is ridiculous, but, seen in the context of the film, it takes a deeper meaning. The visual language modifies the way I receive the text. But, if you are unfamiliar with it, it might seem bizarre... Suppose you've always listened only to Mozart's operas, if I made you listen -without preparation- to a Wagner one, I bet you, you would be completely lost as their musical languages are utterly different.....

[Dewey1960]

John, the definition you provide for "camp" does absolutely nothing but reinforce my belief that the term, the very notion itself, is completely useless and meaningless in any serious discussion about film. Like all art forms, the subjective nature of film allows for us to perceive and absorb what we see and hear in ways that help us to create something meaningful and personal out of the experience. I find it interesting that while you feel JOHNNY GUITAR "isn't very good," (even going to the trouble of citing a fifty-four year old Variety review!) you still managed to include it in your list of favorite westerns a few months back. To hide behind our reluctance to accept that which runs contrary to our preconceived ideas of what constitutes "good art" or "good entertainment" seems to be at cross purposes with respect to the limitless possibilities of film.
And yes, it is sad to me that anyone would think of JOHNNY GUITAR (or any other film) as "camp." Sadder still is the willingness people seem to have in perpetuating the acceptability of such an overtly condescending attitude. Just one man's humble opinion.

[jdb1]

OK, so semantics can always do us in. Let's talk about camp:

To inject a philological note into this discussion, I'll point out that I'm not entirely happy with the definitions you've found for the word "camp." I looked in Webster's Dictionary of the American Language and found "banality, artifice, mediocrity, or ostentation so extreme as to have perversely sophisticated appeal." (Here, "perversely" means the opposite of what's intended, not "perverse" in its derogatory sense.) I think that's a little closer to the essence of the word. Great works, as well as mediocre ones, can be camp.

Several language sources I've read link "camp" to the French theater, and an actual system of histrionic gestures (19th Century, or earlier) that actors were to have used to convey emotions. I just now consulted the Larousse French dictonary, which gives as one of the definitions of "camper" as "[Theatrical] to play the part." I've seen the word defined elsewhere as "posing." In other words, what we now call "vogueing." AnnH - does this definition of "camper" make sense to you?

The word "camp" itself has been in use in English-language theater (in England first, and then here) at least since the 19th Century, and was quickly adopted by gay communities in general on both sides of the Atlantic as a useful concept.

The point I'm making is that the definitions you've found seem to have a negative connotation, whereas I believe the true concept of "camp" is a positive and good-humored one. I don't think the movie in question was intended as camp, but then many things we now consider camp were intended to be serious works of art. The concept of camp has given them new appeal.

[Ann Harding]

Well, John, I am sorry, but allow me to differ!

regarding The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, no matter how great it is, there is at least one aspect that certainly makes me laugh: dear Jimmy Stewart trying to play a young bubbling lawyer when he is obviously in his fifties!

As for Johnny Guitar's dialogue being silly, I think people should have a sample of the actual dialogue to make up their mind themselves. This is a scene between Vienna (J. Crawford) and Johnny Logan (Sterling Hayden) where they are trying to recapture their former love.

Johnny: How many men have you forgotten?
Vienna: As many women as you. Remember?
Johnny: Don't go away!
Vienna: I haven't moved.
Johnny: Tell me something nice.
Vienna: Sure. What do you want to hear?
Johnny: Lie to me. Tell me that all those years, you've waited.
Vienna: All those years, I've waited.
Johnny: Tell me you would have died if I hadn't come back.
Vienna: I would have died if you hadn't come back.
Johnny: Tell me you still love me like I loved you.
Vienna: I still love you like you loved me.
Johnny: Thanks a lot.

The text reminds me of an opera duet, in a way. Why not? The way Crawford and Hayden perform it certainly very moving.

[ChiO]

Oh, you guys...

You forced me to reread Notes on Camp by the Mother of Camp, Susan Sontag. Before I reread it, I was firmly in the Dewey camp (or, non-Camp, as it were); however, on rereading, I started softening my position...until Notes 23 & 26-27. JOHNNY GUITAR does have all of the elements of Camp (as formulated by Sontag) except one, and that one is key.

To be Camp, the work of art must have a seriousness that fails (Note 23). The work cannot be taken altogether seriously because it is "too much" (Note 26) and, while exaggeration can make a work close to Camp, it cannot be Camp if it succeeds (Note 27). I think that it is this aspect of Camp that leads to hearing it as a derogatory term, i.e. Camp = failed art. Sontag did not intend the term to be derogatory, instead viewing Camp as having its own virtues.

The definition of "success" (and its derivatives), of course, can vary over time. In fact, any artistic work that is contemporaneously considered Camp probably is not Camp, but parody. Camp cannot be self-consciously Camp, such a work failing both as art and Camp.

The real problem -- perhaps unresolvable -- is whether there are objective standards by which to determine "success" and, if so, what they may be. I hate believing there are no such standards because that leads to "art is in the eye of the beholder" and, for example, that the films of William Beaudine can be the artistic equivalents of the films of Orson Welles -- a proposition that I cannot accept (the films of Ed Wood or Ray Dennis Steckler on the other hand...).

So, where does that leave us/me? I don't know, except I like the discussion. Oh -- and I think that JOHNNY GUITAR is a transgressive (I love current crit-lit nonpejorative terms that translate as "it may seem outre and Camp to some, but I love it and will treat it seriously") work of genius.