Noir Alley

Belle
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Belle »

I found the film on YouTube and they don't usually remain there for very long. I don't have any subscription services for films. We had Fox cable here in Australia and they dropped TCM, so I dropped their service. Pronto.
Belle
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Belle »

kingrat wrote: June 9th, 2023, 10:09 pm I watched quite a film noir last night that I'd never considered to be film noir: Suddenly Last Summer. Jack Hildyard, the cinematographer, knows a thing or two about noir. How lovingly he films the corridors and stairways in the asylums. Remember Colonel Sternwood's hothouse in The Big Sleep? The Venables' garden of flesh-eating plants is even more perfect for noir. Elevators are another favorite noir trope, and Violet Venable's descent and final ascent in her private elevator are wonderfully creepy. Dr. Cukrowicz (Montgomery Clift) is a kind of private detective, hired by Violet Venable (Katharine Hepburn) an employer of questionable morals. Evil rich people and others who want their money! Sound familiar? Catherine Holly (Elizabeth Taylor) has amnesia, another favorite noir trope.

Suddenly Last Summer even describes the ultimate noir theology: that the face of God is represented by the birds' devouring the just-hatched sea turtles. Sebastian Venable (one of those important characters who never appear in the film directly, like Rusty Regan in The Big Sleep) thinks that love means using and being used. This is so noir.
I guess this is why the entire genre has become augmented over the years, but film noir did start life with a particular set of tropes and characters. I love it. I just started watching "Breaking Point" a few minutes ago; Michael Curtiz and direction as tight as a drum. I realized I'd seen it before, but it's highly recommended as noir.

Does anybody consider "King Creole" as noir? Another Curtiz film, this time with Elvis (who could seriously act, BTW).
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Belle wrote: June 9th, 2023, 4:39 pm I found the film on YouTube and they don't usually remain there for very long. I don't have any subscription services for films. We had Fox cable here in Australia and they dropped TCM, so I dropped their service. Pronto.
Oh, you're in Australia. Nice to see folks from that country at this forum.
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Belle wrote: June 9th, 2023, 10:36 pm
kingrat wrote: June 9th, 2023, 10:09 pm I watched quite a film noir last night that I'd never considered to be film noir: Suddenly Last Summer. Jack Hildyard, the cinematographer, knows a thing or two about noir. How lovingly he films the corridors and stairways in the asylums. Remember Colonel Sternwood's hothouse in The Big Sleep? The Venables' garden of flesh-eating plants is even more perfect for noir. Elevators are another favorite noir trope, and Violet Venable's descent and final ascent in her private elevator are wonderfully creepy. Dr. Cukrowicz (Montgomery Clift) is a kind of private detective, hired by Violet Venable (Katharine Hepburn) an employer of questionable morals. Evil rich people and others who want their money! Sound familiar? Catherine Holly (Elizabeth Taylor) has amnesia, another favorite noir trope.

Suddenly Last Summer even describes the ultimate noir theology: that the face of God is represented by the birds' devouring the just-hatched sea turtles. Sebastian Venable (one of those important characters who never appear in the film directly, like Rusty Regan in The Big Sleep) thinks that love means using and being used. This is so noir.
I guess this is why the entire genre has become augmented over the years, but film noir did start life with a particular set of tropes and characters. I love it. I just started watching "Breaking Point" a few minutes ago; Michael Curtiz and direction as tight as a drum. I realized I'd seen it before, but it's highly recommended as noir.

Does anybody consider "King Creole" as noir? Another Curtiz film, this time with Elvis (who could seriously act, BTW).
Note that what is defined as 'noir' can encompass many different aspects: E.g. I consider noir more of a film style than a genre.

As for The Breaking Point: This is a Warner Bros. remake of the Hemingway short story To Have and Have Not, the Howard Hawks film with Bogart and Bacall. Since the first film was made during WWII the story was changed and it became more of a war story\romance. The Breaking Point with John Garfield is a lot closer to the original story and retains many more noir themes. A fine film with what I find to be one of the saddest endings I have ever witnessed.
Belle
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Belle »

Yes, I agree with you about the ending of "The Breaking Point". Well directed by Michael Curtiz, who could be an inconsistent director IMO. His "We're No Angels", for example, is very poorly directed. What of his "King Creole" and noir? It's a very good film which has an opening influenced by Rouben Mamoulian's "Love me Tonight", 1932. (May I tell you I very nearly met the great Mamoulian when I worked at our Australian Broadcasting Corporation in the 1970s; Mamoulian had come over for the Sydney Film Festival and he was in the office next to mine with a TV producer. My friend (the producer's assistant) came in and asked if I'd like to come into their office to meet him and I replied "I haven't heard of him"!!! (And, yes, I've regretted it my whole life.)



You're correct about style rather than genre, of course. But noir was a work in progress over many years. Who would have imagined "Leave Her to Heaven" would be a noir; a Technicolor noir!!!
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C*i*g*a*rTheJoe
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by C*i*g*a*rTheJoe »

Original coinage of "Film Noir" was by French political rightwing and religious publications. The right wing publications because many – but not all – of the film noirs were from the poetic realist movement that was closely associated with the leftist Popular Front. The religious publications because the films tended to be indecent, immoral, sacrilegious, and inclined to incite to crime and corrupt morals.

"Writing in Action française in January 1938, the critic Francois Vinneuil called (the film) “Le Puritan” “a classic subject: the film noir, plunging into debauchery and crime.”" (Charles O'Brien from Film Noir In France: Before The Liberation).

"There are nine film noirs identified in O’Briens essay: Pierre Chenal’s “Crime and Punishment” (1935), Jean Renoir’s “The Lower Depths” (Les Bas-fonds) (1936), Julien Duvivier’s “Pépé le Moko” (1937), Jeff Musso’s “The Puritan” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Port of Shadows” (Le Quai des brumes) (1938), Jean Renoir’s “La Bête Humaine” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Hôtel du Nord” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Le Jour se lève” (Daybreak) 1939, and Pierre Chenal’s “Le Dernier Tournant” (1939).

Five of the films are of the poetic realism movement (although as with anything else that could be debated): “The Lower Depths,” “Pépé le Moko,” Port of Shadows,” “La Bête Humaine” and “Le Jour se lève.” The other four films contain similar themes. In three of the films the protagonist commits suicide and suicide plays a role in two other films. In three of the films the protagonist is incarcerated or executed by the state. In one film the protagonist is killed senselessly. Three films have wives conspiring with lovers to kill husbands. In two films the protagonist survives with a lover although what follows that survival isn’t clear and in one film one lover is shot in a botched suicide pact. What also isn’t clear is whether there are more films called “noirs” that will show up with subsequent research and whether similar and earlier films made before the term “film noir” first hit ink are also film noirs.

The film noirs considered part of the poetic realism movement have a visual style that would influence the American crime film made both during and after the war with “Port of Shadows” being the most obvious example, the other films are made in different styles. The remaining films – “Hôtel du Nord” and “Le Dernier Tournant” – are filmed in a more conventional style although the content contains murder or suicide and the other social taboos that are a mainstay of the film noirs.

None of these films are about private detectives hard-boiled or otherwise and none of them are police procedurals or stories where the police – or any member of governmental society – are seen as heroic. The films are about the working class and those below the working class or, in a few films, what was once referred to as the Lumpenproletariat. In fact, there isn’t a single crime film – as that term is conventionally used – in the list. “Pépé Le Moko,” a film that centers on a fugitive criminal hiding in the Casbah of Algiers, is a film about memory and desire more than anything else and its suicide ending has to do with facing what the character believes he has lost and not the possibility of incarceration." (William Ahern from "The Death Of Film Noir")
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Belle wrote: June 11th, 2023, 4:05 am Yes, I agree with you about the ending of "The Breaking Point". Well directed by Michael Curtiz, who could be an inconsistent director IMO. His "We're No Angels", for example, is very poorly directed. What of his "King Creole" and noir? It's a very good film which has an opening influenced by Rouben Mamoulian's "Love me Tonight", 1932. (May I tell you I very nearly met the great Mamoulian when I worked at our Australian Broadcasting Corporation in the 1970s; Mamoulian had come over for the Sydney Film Festival and he was in the office next to mine with a TV producer. My friend (the producer's assistant) came in and asked if I'd like to come into their office to meet him and I replied "I haven't heard of him"!!! (And, yes, I've regretted it my whole life.)

You're correct about style rather than genre, of course. But noir was a work in progress over many years. Who would have imagined "Leave Her to Heaven" would be a noir; a Technicolor noir!!!
As for King Creole: The film contains some themes and the character played by Elvis is a 'classic' noir protagonist. A basically decent person that makes some wrong decisions and gets involved with criminals, that has a very negative impact on those that love him, especially his dad.

My favorite Elvis film due to the storyline and the other actors Carolyn Jones and Walter Matthau. As for "but is it noir?". I answer it like this:

If I was writing a book about film noir I would not include King Creole in the main-section of the book where I would list all the so called 'classic' noirs of the 'classic' noir era. I would instead include it in a follow-up section of film genres that have strong noir themes: King Creole is a musical (of course since there is Elvis and he does his musical thing). There are westerns with strong noir themes, and even some comedies. This is where I would feature films like King Creole, or Blood on the Moon, etc...
Last edited by jamesjazzguitar on June 12th, 2023, 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Belle
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Belle »

C*i*g*a*rTheJoe wrote: June 11th, 2023, 6:53 am Original coinage of "Film Noir" was by French political rightwing and religious publications. The right wing publications because many – but not all – of the film noirs were from the poetic realist movement that was closely associated with the leftist Popular Front. The religious publications because the films tended to be indecent, immoral, sacrilegious, and inclined to incite to crime and corrupt morals.

"Writing in Action française in January 1938, the critic Francois Vinneuil called (the film) “Le Puritan” “a classic subject: the film noir, plunging into debauchery and crime.”" (Charles O'Brien from Film Noir In France: Before The Liberation).

"There are nine film noirs identified in O’Briens essay: Pierre Chenal’s “Crime and Punishment” (1935), Jean Renoir’s “The Lower Depths” (Les Bas-fonds) (1936), Julien Duvivier’s “Pépé le Moko” (1937), Jeff Musso’s “The Puritan” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Port of Shadows” (Le Quai des brumes) (1938), Jean Renoir’s “La Bête Humaine” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Hôtel du Nord” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Le Jour se lève” (Daybreak) 1939, and Pierre Chenal’s “Le Dernier Tournant” (1939).

Five of the films are of the poetic realism movement (although as with anything else that could be debated): “The Lower Depths,” “Pépé le Moko,” Port of Shadows,” “La Bête Humaine” and “Le Jour se lève.” The other four films contain similar themes. In three of the films the protagonist commits suicide and suicide plays a role in two other films. In three of the films the protagonist is incarcerated or executed by the state. In one film the protagonist is killed senselessly. Three films have wives conspiring with lovers to kill husbands. In two films the protagonist survives with a lover although what follows that survival isn’t clear and in one film one lover is shot in a botched suicide pact. What also isn’t clear is whether there are more films called “noirs” that will show up with subsequent research and whether similar and earlier films made before the term “film noir” first hit ink are also film noirs.

The film noirs considered part of the poetic realism movement have a visual style that would influence the American crime film made both during and after the war with “Port of Shadows” being the most obvious example, the other films are made in different styles. The remaining films – “Hôtel du Nord” and “Le Dernier Tournant” – are filmed in a more conventional style although the content contains murder or suicide and the other social taboos that are a mainstay of the film noirs.

None of these films are about private detectives hard-boiled or otherwise and none of them are police procedurals or stories where the police – or any member of governmental society – are seen as heroic. The films are about the working class and those below the working class or, in a few films, what was once referred to as the Lumpenproletariat. In fact, there isn’t a single crime film – as that term is conventionally used – in the list. “Pépé Le Moko,” a film that centers on a fugitive criminal hiding in the Casbah of Algiers, is a film about memory and desire more than anything else and its suicide ending has to do with facing what the character believes he has lost and not the possibility of incarceration." (William Ahern from "The Death Of Film Noir")
This is an excellent historical assessment. However, what isn't mentioned - but it may be in the book - is the relationship between urbanization, crime and noir. It's the violent, corrupt and damaging aspect of urbanization (particularly high-density) which provides the canvas on which noir is painted. The mean streets. This same urbanization which saw criminal gangs explode, leading to violence and extortion. (The city hasn't got a lot going for it, has it??!!)
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Dargo
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Dargo »

kingrat wrote: June 11th, 2023, 7:11 pm
Joe, France was about to enter a darker time in 1940 than anything the directors of poetic realism could imagine.
Yep, KR. I'd say the following probably ranks as one of most "noir" images ever caught on film, alright!...

Image

;)
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Hibi
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Hibi »

I'd seen it once before but couldn't remember who the guilty party was so it was almost like watching it for the first time. Well done.
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Hibi wrote: June 15th, 2023, 10:46 am I'd seen it once before but couldn't remember who the guilty party was so it was almost like watching it for the first time. Well done.
While I did remember the guilty party, I must have drunk too much wine the last time I saw the film, since there were scenes I couldn't remember and thus they felt fresh to me. I was able to take-in a lot more of the overall atmosphere instead of focusing too much on following the plot line (like I did the first take).
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ziggy6708a
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by ziggy6708a »

was "mr6666" @ TCM
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