Noir Alley

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laffite
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by laffite »

Thompson wrote: February 5th, 2023, 8:17 pm My bartender friend liked Hangover Square a lot. She was surprised I missed it but I was hungover and overslept and she was kind not to wake me, so I can’t comment on any drinks left undrunk. Dang.
And it was about hangovers too (of a sort) And you missed It?! O woe to you in the mornin!
Sabine Azema in Sunday in the Country
Thompson
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Thompson »

It’s the shakes that make this life unsustainable. I think that was a quote from Under the Volcano. Oh, btw, Albert Finney is a totally delightful person, funny as all get out, he ate lunch every day at the Bistro when he was doing Miller’s Crossing. Everybody just loved him.
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Thompson »

Albert is dead I see. I didn’t know that. He made it to 82, he’d be 86 this year. Time and memory play tricks on you. But that is the definition of art — it never becomes the “was” it always remains the “is”
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Andree wrote: February 5th, 2023, 11:23 pm
laffite wrote: February 5th, 2023, 10:06 pm

Well, if I had seen it "a few times before," the ending wouldn't be a mystery to me either. And if you are not into classical music, how do you know about that period of music history. Just chiding you, you left yourself open with some careless verbiage. Leave it to me to be the classless opportunist that would profit from it.

:smiley_snoopy: Yes, that was really bad, laffite. You should go sit in the corner for six hours. And no Tom Terrific for a week.

I probably agree with you (not you, Snoopy ; but Andree) but is it not the purpose here to bring up anything, though it may be of the remotest significance, even if it has no significance at all? :smiley_innocent: We must look at every nook and cranny for new discoveries :smiley_innocent: To have monstrous inclinations triggered by discordant sounds in one who composes discordant music is not altogether fool. At least for a mention. It may be far fetched but nervous filmmakers might have worried just a little that they may have erred into having something that film goers mulled over that they, the filmmakers, did not intend.

And see James post above. He brings the doctor into play with this issue.
Of course due to the Production Code the viewer knows that Mr. Bone will come to a bad end, they just don't know the
particulars of that end, a fairly spectacular one as it turns out. I'm not into classical music in the same way I'm not
into bluegrass music, i.e. I don't have a deep interest in either genre of music, but I've heard both over the years,
and I didn't find Mr. Bone's music to be more dissonant than other classical music I recall from that period. Bone is
disconcerted by sudden jarring sounds that are not related to his music per se. I suppose that could have some connection
to his livelihood as a composer. Then again, maybe not. Classical music is a higher end topic than if doll houses, dust
bunnies, or ladies' undergarments set him off. A little of the old Hollywood pseudo-sophistication. :smiley_oneglass:
It appears you're saying that due to the Production Code Bone had to die (i.e. come to a bad end). If that is what you're saying I don't agree. What both the police and doctor said before the final scene are very understanding comments. Remember it was Bone that went to the doctor in the first place. He had remorse. He wanted to be caught and stopped (similar to a man that becomes a werewolf). The Code didn't require the death of someone who commits crimes that clearly has a mental illness. The best example of this is Scarlett Street where the killer (Eddie G.), escapes all legal punishment. So the film could have ended with Bone completing his concerto and being taken away to a mental institution.

While Bone is playing and the doctor comes in he has one of his "moments"; E.g. his slight gets blurry, etc... What caused that if not the music?
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Dargo
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Dargo »

Help me out here folks, as I must have missed something in Hangover Square.

In the penultimate scene in which Sanders confronts Cregar in the latter's apartment and says to him that he knows he's the murderer and that he must go with him to the police, and they're then shown walking out of the apartment as this scene ends.

However, the very next scene, the film's finale, shows Cregar performing his concerto and being surprised and alarmed to see Sanders walking through the door of concert hall and along with police officers through different doors.

(...so what gives here?...I don't recall Sanders agreeing to allow Cregar to perform his music before escorting him to the police station in the previous scene?)
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Dargo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:08 am Help me out here folks, as I must have missed something in Hangover Square.

In the penultimate scene in which Sanders confronts Cregar in the latter's apartment and says to him that he knows he's the murderer and that he must go with him to the police, and they're then shown walking out of the apartment as this scene ends.

However, the very next scene, the film's finale, shows Cregar performing his concerto and being surprised and alarmed to see Sanders walking through the door of concert hall and along with police officers through different doors.

(...so what gives here?...I don't recall Sanders agreeing to allow Cregar to perform his music before escorting him to the police station in the previous scene?)
It appears you missed the scene where a cop and a bystander hear someone banging a door and it is Sanders who has been locked into a room\basement by Cregar. Now there is no scene that shows how Cregar was able to bully Sanders into that room (which had to take place right after Sanders says Cregar has to go to the police and can't go to the performance). I.e. all we see is Cregar going to the performance and Sanders being found. So yea, that was confusing the first time I saw it.
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Dargo
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Dargo »

jamesjazzguitar wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:22 am
Dargo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:08 am Help me out here folks, as I must have missed something in Hangover Square.

In the penultimate scene in which Sanders confronts Cregar in the latter's apartment and says to him that he knows he's the murderer and that he must go with him to the police, and they're then shown walking out of the apartment as this scene ends.

However, the very next scene, the film's finale, shows Cregar performing his concerto and being surprised and alarmed to see Sanders walking through the door of concert hall and along with police officers through different doors.

(...so what gives here?...I don't recall Sanders agreeing to allow Cregar to perform his music before escorting him to the police station in the previous scene?)
It appears you missed the scene where a cop and a bystander hear someone banging a door and it is Sanders who has been locked into a room\basement by Cregar. Now there is no scene that shows how Cregar was able to bully Sanders into that room (which had to take place right after Sanders says Cregar has to go to the police and can't go to the performance). I.e. all we see is Cregar going to the performance and Sanders being found. So yea, that was confusing the first time I saw it.
Thanks James. Yep, I must have somehow missed seeing that scene.

(...appreciate the reply here)
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laffite
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by laffite »

I missed it too. I thought Bone just ignored the doctor and bullied his way to the piano. Where was the doctor while the playing was going and the fire was raging and he said, "Better this way," meaning just let him die in the fire. Wasn't he in a position to see what what was going on? How could he be locked up? Thanks.
Sabine Azema in Sunday in the Country
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

laffite wrote: February 6th, 2023, 2:05 pm I missed it too. I thought Bone just ignored the doctor and bullied his way to the piano. Where was the doctor while the playing was going and the fire was raging and he said, "Better this way," meaning just let him die in the fire. Wasn't he in a position to see what what was going on? How could he be locked up? Thanks.
Bone locked up the Doctor somewhere near his place of residence and then went to the hall where the performance was (since the Doctor was going to take Bone directly to the police station).

The Doctor was found and released, made his way to the hall and got there while Bone was in the middle of his performance.
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Andree
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Andree »

jamesjazzguitar wrote: February 6th, 2023, 10:36 am
It appears you're saying that due to the Production Code Bone had to die (i.e. come to a bad end). If that is what you're saying I don't agree. What both the police and doctor said before the final scene are very understanding comments. Remember it was Bone that went to the doctor in the first place. He had remorse. He wanted to be caught and stopped (similar to a man that becomes a werewolf). The Code didn't require the death of someone who commits crimes that clearly has a mental illness. The best example of this is Scarlett Street where the killer (Eddie G.), escapes all legal punishment. So the film could have ended with Bone completing his concerto and being taken away to a mental institution.

While Bone is playing and the doctor comes in he has one of his "moments"; E.g. his slight gets blurry, etc... What caused that if not the music?
I think the case of Scarlet Street is one of those rare exceptions to the Code. I would imagine the producers had to fight
to see that Eddie G. doesn't die at the end, perhaps using the argument that his self-torment would be a worse punishment
than anything the judicial system could hand out. But in just about every case where there is a killer they are punished, mental
illness or not. Uncle Charlie had a few screws loose, even if it wasn't obvious to his kinfolk, and he still ended up on the wrong
side of a train. If Bone was really serious about being stopped he would have confessed his murders, even with the problem
of black outs, and spent the rest of his life in a prison cell or a mental institution. But that would have made for a flat ending,
especially compared with a guy going up in smoke while pounding away at the piano. That moment was because of the music.
Others were due to a sudden loud sound that was not music. The world is full of such sounds. That's why he needed to be locked
away.
Every man has a right to an umbrella.~Dostoyevsky
MissWonderly
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by MissWonderly »

Andree wrote: February 5th, 2023, 6:48 pm
Yes, George has many talents. Besides being a brilliant composer, he won the torte eating
contest at Bayreuth last year.




Meet the Edwardian psycho, same as the Victorian psycho. Style, very impressive. Some dark, eerie cinematography and
atmospheric setting in 1903 London, the Guy Fawkes bonfire being a standout. And give Bone credit for the clever idea
of putting Netta's corpse on top of the bonfire just in time. But the substance is lacking. It just the same old, same old
nutcase killer, the only difference being the individual killer's tic. In Bone's case it's discordant noises. Hey, whatever.
One does feel sympathy for the old boy, at least a limited sympathy because he is still bumping off folks. And with the
Production Code we know that Bone is going to come to some kind of bad end, and playing the piano while all around
you everything is on fire is not a bad way to end things. A cut above the usual wrong in the head flick, but still too much
of the old been there, done that plot. I looked at Leslie Halliwell's Film Guide entry on Hangover Square and he quotes
this excerpt from Richard Mallett of Punch: 'A half-chewed collection of reminiscences of Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde and
The Lodger.' A little harsh, but I think it sums it up pretty accurately.
You must be Vautrin. You have exactly the same style. Confirm or deny??
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by MissWonderly »

laffite wrote: February 5th, 2023, 7:15 pm
Andree wrote: February 5th, 2023, 6:48 pm
[...snip ... ]
But the substance is lacking. It just the same old, same old
nutcase killer, the only difference being the individual killer's tic. In Bone's case it's discordant noises.
[ ... snip ... ]
And yet the music he composes is by definition discordant (in comparison with traditional more tonal fare), being modern as it is.

Does this apparent irony have any play in all of this?
I thought of that too-- that his own music is often "discordant", or anyway, sort of minor-keyish sounding. hm, obviously his own compositions do not trigger the "amnesia" that makes him go bonkers. But then, if you think about it, the sounds that seemed to trigger him were not musical sounds at all, "discordant" or otherwise; they were more jarring noises than anything else.
Although, if discordant or atonal music were to push George's nutter button, good thing he didn't listen to Arnold Schoenberg ( neither do I.)
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Andree
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by Andree »

MissWonderly wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:59 pm
You must be Vautrin. You have exactly the same style. Confirm or deny??

At this time, my fellow North Americans, I can neither confirm or deny that supposition. But I can assure you of one thing,
I am not a crook. :smiley_sealed:
Every man has a right to an umbrella.~Dostoyevsky
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laffite
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by laffite »

Andree wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:16 pm
MissWonderly wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:59 pm
You must be Vautrin. You have exactly the same style. Confirm or deny??

At this time, my fellow North Americans, I can neither confirm or deny that supposition. But I can assure you of one thing,
I am not a crook. :smiley_sealed:
MissWonderly

Your points are quite right on. The harsher sounds is what set him off, but if we are to be a forum worth its salt, the parallel with the idea of discordance modern music must needs be mentioned even if as just a curio. I introduced this point (I think) and didn't make such a big deal. It seemed cool to me that it came to my mind at all, like gee whiz laffite, look how observant, only to be told important details about the movements of the doctor that clearly slipped by my attention. Dognabit, I blame it on that fire and that idiot playing the piano, etc., hahaha.

Andree,

Yeah, right! Your avatar reminds me of a short story by Dorothy Parker entitled Big Blonde. And the extra e. I wonder if the new persona could have the notoriety of your previous. If you are chided about all this, it is because you are clever and highly respected. At least for me, I will cease along these lines from now on, it's enough to have the pleasure of knowing who I'm talking too, and that kind sir/madam is hopefully to be taken as a compliment.

This will all die down but beware looking skyward, you may see a Chinese Balloon.

To be honest, I am incognito on another forum. So far no one has said anything but the clues are obvious. It's only a matter of time.
Sabine Azema in Sunday in the Country
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: Noir Alley

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

Andree wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:49 pm
jamesjazzguitar wrote: February 6th, 2023, 10:36 am
It appears you're saying that due to the Production Code Bone had to die (i.e. come to a bad end). If that is what you're saying I don't agree. What both the police and doctor said before the final scene are very understanding comments. Remember it was Bone that went to the doctor in the first place. He had remorse. He wanted to be caught and stopped (similar to a man that becomes a werewolf). The Code didn't require the death of someone who commits crimes that clearly has a mental illness. The best example of this is Scarlett Street where the killer (Eddie G.), escapes all legal punishment. So the film could have ended with Bone completing his concerto and being taken away to a mental institution.

While Bone is playing and the doctor comes in he has one of his "moments"; E.g. his slight gets blurry, etc... What caused that if not the music?
I think the case of Scarlet Street is one of those rare exceptions to the Code. I would imagine the producers had to fight
to see that Eddie G. doesn't die at the end, perhaps using the argument that his self-torment would be a worse punishment
than anything the judicial system could hand out. But in just about every case where there is a killer they are punished, mental
illness or not. Uncle Charlie had a few screws loose, even if it wasn't obvious to his kinfolk, and he still ended up on the wrong
side of a train. If Bone was really serious about being stopped he would have confessed his murders, even with the problem
of black outs, and spent the rest of his life in a prison cell or a mental institution. But that would have made for a flat ending,
especially compared with a guy going up in smoke while pounding away at the piano. That moment was because of the music.
Others were due to a sudden loud sound that was not music. The world is full of such sounds. That's why he needed to be locked
away.
Please note that I said "had to die"". Anyhow it appears there was some misunderstanding: I agree that the Production code would require someone that commits murder to be punished, and that the most common punishment for someone with a clear mental illness is being locked up in a mental institution.

BUT I'm also glad that didn't happen! The best thing about the film is the ending. All that fire and smoke and then "The End" placed on top of that. I wouldn't wish to change a thing.

As for Scarlet Street: I have yet to find out how that got passed the Code censors. It is one of the key mysteries of the studio \ production-code era. Note that Bogie gets away with murder in The Big Sleep when he guns Canino (since Marlowe knew Canino had used all of his bullets and didn't even advise Canino to put-his-hands-up before pulling the trigger). Director Hawks had to lobby hard to keep that scene, mainly using the cruel scene where Canino murders Harry Jones using poison. I.e. Canino was so rotten the censors decided to look the other way.
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