The Silver Screen Oasis

A talented actor, I admit that though I've thought the subject a parade float, I have trouble looking at KEVIN SPACEY now; the damage is done. There have always been lecherous men, drunken slobs, and bad behavior. There sure is much worse. It's tragic growing pains for our culture is immature... and a man's reputation is ruined.

TikiSoo wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 12:32 pm

HoldenIsHere wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 10:54 am Kevin Spacey might have been acquitted, but I know some male actors who have worked with him when they were young who would have no reason to lie (and would never "come forward" to accuse him publicly for personal reasons) and they have experienced Spacey's predatory behavior.

Well that's the way it goes with these cases- it often happens when you're young and it goes unreported because of intimidation. No one wants to expose themselves to negative publicity.
Often those involved realize a mistake of judgement, like provocative clothing or conversation, that may have created a misconstrued situation.

When reported, a jury hears both sides and decides upon a preponderance of the evidence. It just wasn't proven enough to warrant a monetary award.
The fact the film company deleted him from the movie is what offends me. He was just accused, not convicted. Might they have been aware of the validity of the accusation? We'll never know.

It goes back to do you judge the Art or The Artist who made it?
There's lots of actors in movies I love despite knowing the person was actually a distasteful boor.

The recent case in London was a criminal case where jurors are supposed to find the accused not guilty if there is "reasonable doubt," which is where the bar should be in criminal cases. There was no monetary award being sought in this case.

The jurors in this case apparently believed there was reasonable doubt in the accusations against Spacey.

The title of the original post and the video, however is false: "Accusers Were Lying for $."
That was an argument made by Spacey's defense attorney Patrick Gibbs, but the accusers denied it. (It was a criminal case not civil one.)
Whenever someone accuses another person of sexual assault, the accusers themselves can be eviscerated by the defense team, especially when the accuser can afford top legal representation. Many victims don't report sexual assault because they don’t want to be "tried" themselves by the defense attorneys in court.
For a man to report unwanted sexual advances or even assault it takes a lot of consideration because many people today think men are just supposed to "suck it up." And despite the at least superficial "tolerance" (hate that word!) of gay people today, there is still a stigma about reporting a homosexual assault by another man and being asked to describe it

Kevin Spacey was fired from HOUSE OF CARDS because of accusations both on and off the set. It was a business decision. It was also a business decision by Ridley Scott and Tristar to not use any of the shot footage of Kevin Spacey is the released version of ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD, choosing to substitute re-shot footage of Christopher Plummer. No one forced the producers to make those decisions where they calculated how to most avoid losses.

Swithin wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:16 pm

jamesjazzguitar wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:10 pm

Swithin wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 1:54 pm
Today, it's much clearer as to what kind of behavior is acceptable and what is not.

It is not 'much clearer'. Not by a long shot! Instead, it is a lot grayer. This is why so many people are into cancel culture: because they disagree about what behavior is acceptable and wish to cancel those that view things differently.

Well, I mean today it's clear that if you grab someone's genitals (or perhaps even a more innocuous body part), you're going to get into serious trouble, unless it's obviously consensual.

That is just one specific kind of behavior. I took your comment to be about many different types of behavior. E.g. what one can say to another in the workplace without getting into serious trouble: this is as clear as mud! I hope we can agree that for most behaviors what is acceptable or not is a lot less clear today, than it was, say 50 years ago.

I think we need to get to the place where reporting sexual harassment or a sexual crime must happen at the time of the incident. People have to be made comfortable to do that. I know (because I'm on various boards) that more and more companies and institutions have developed policies so that these things can be reported when they happen. Or if it rises to the level of a crime, then report it to the police.

It's not healthy for a society when people can pop up some time later to make an accusation. I know the usual excuse is that they were afraid for their job, or something like that. Much as I revile Donald Trump, I even think the woman who came forth decades later is troubling in the sense that, although she is telling the truth, our public and political life cannot be agitated by situations like that.

I may lose some progressive creds on this, but I think there should be a statute of limitations on the reporting of these situations.

TikiSoo wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 12:32 pm

HoldenIsHere wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 10:54 am Kevin Spacey might have been acquitted, but I know some male actors who have worked with him when they were young who would have no reason to lie (and would never "come forward" to accuse him publicly for personal reasons) and they have experienced Spacey's predatory behavior.

Well that's the way it goes with these cases- it often happens when you're young and it goes unreported because of intimidation. No one wants to expose themselves to negative publicity.
Often those involved realize a mistake of judgement, like provocative clothing or conversation, that may have created a misconstrued situation.

When reported, a jury hears both sides and decides upon a preponderance of the evidence. It just wasn't proven enough to warrant a monetary award.
The fact the film company deleted him from the movie is what offends me. He was just accused, not convicted. Might they have been aware of the validity of the accusation? We'll never know.

It goes back to do you judge the Art or The Artist who made it?
There's lots of actors in movies I love despite knowing the person was actually a distasteful boor.

I just wonder why nobody ever accuses poor people of 'sexual misconduct'.

Belle wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 5:45 pm ...
I just wonder why nobody ever accuses poor people of 'sexual misconduct'.

It happens every day. Those people are not only poor, but not famous.

I've found it ironic that the the past few years we've had both the collective exhortations to "Believe all women", and an acclaimed film about Emmett Till.

Fedya wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 6:34 pm I've found it ironic that the the past few years we've had both the collective exhortations to "Believe all women", and an acclaimed film about Emmett Till.

Sorry Fedya, but while I understand the point you're attempting to make here, I'm having a tough time with what seems your equating an actual physical lynching by a violent mob of outraged bigots of some poor young black kid due to some woman claiming he whistled at her, and with the idea of someone being charged in a court of law and/or being sued over alleged unlawful physical acts of which they're being accused.

Nope sorry, but I think your sense of "irony" here is a bit misplaced.

(...and in MY view as misplaced as the time a certain soon-to-be Supreme Court justice attempted to use the argument that HE was being "lynched" for being an "uppity negro" after an old co-worker of his made these kinds of accusations about him during his confirmation hearings...and the TRULY sad part about THIS, is that it somehow worked for him!)

Allhallowsday wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 5:58 pm

Belle wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 5:45 pm ...
I just wonder why nobody ever accuses poor people of 'sexual misconduct'.

It happens every day. Those people are not only poor, but not famous.

Could you give me an example please? It's unheard of in Australia. It's usually the rich and famous or somebody in the workplace (where the workplace foots the bill for any 'sexually inappropriate' behaviour, 'unwanted advances', 'sexual harassment': what does any of that even mean?).

"Would you like to join me for coffee at lunch time?".... "No, that's sexual harassment". I mean, where is all this leading because many people meet their love interests in the workplace. That's where I met my spouse of decades. I was cleaning the office in the early 70s and he was a middle manager working overtime. That's today regarded as a 'power imbalance'. For me it was a 'date'. We have been together since April, 1973.

We have in Australia a situation where the richest man is divorcing his wife; somebody in the company he owns has made a complaint about his 'sexual harassment' of a female on the staff. It was an anonymous complaint; turns out one of the women in the company is very likely to be having an affair with the 'owner' who is being divorced - ie. the richest man - and somebody else doesn't like that. I mean, what the...???!!! You expect this behaviour in Russia or Communist China or North Korea and not in a modern democracy.

Belle wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 7:27 pm

Allhallowsday wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 5:58 pm

Belle wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 5:45 pm ...
I just wonder why nobody ever accuses poor people of 'sexual misconduct'.

It happens every day. Those people are not only poor, but not famous.

Could you give me an example please? It's unheard of in Australia. It's usually the rich and famous or somebody in the workplace (where the workplace foots the bill for any 'sexually inappropriate' behaviour, 'unwanted advances', 'sexual harassment': what does any of that even mean?).

"Would you like to join me for coffee at lunch time?".... "No, that's sexual harassment". I mean, where is all this leading because many people meet their love interests in the workplace. That's where I met my spouse of decades. I was cleaning the office in the early 70s and he was a middle manager working overtime. That's today regarded as a 'power imbalance'. For me it was a 'date'. We have been together since April, 1973.

We have in Australia a situation where the richest man is divorcing his wife; somebody in the company he owns has made a complaint about his 'sexual harassment' of a female on the staff. It was an anonymous complaint; turns out one of the women in the company is very likely to be having an affair with the 'owner' who is being divorced - ie. the richest man - and somebody else doesn't like that. I mean, what the...???!!!

Well Belle, ya see here in the good ol' U.S. of A. what oftens happened is that some creep who lives hand-to-mouth and can't rub two nickles together and who'll get fired from his job after his HR meeting for this kind of thing, will return to his former place of business armed with a Glock and maybe an AR-15, and will then shoot his accuser and maybe five or six of his innocent former co-workers in an attempt to seek some form of "resolution" to his problem!

C'mon now, SURELY you must have read about this sort'a thing happening here with some frequency in at least SOME of those Austrailian news sources of yours down there, RIGHT?!!!

LOL

You can now chalk this up to BOTH "gallows humor" (oh wait, you're Austrailian huh...I meant "gallows humour" here of course ) AND to the idea that what I just told you IS unfortunately the honest TRUTH. And so, there's an example for ya here.

Belle wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 7:27 pm

Allhallowsday wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 5:58 pm

Belle wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 5:45 pm ...
I just wonder why nobody ever accuses poor people of 'sexual misconduct'.

It happens every day. Those people are not only poor, but not famous.

Could you give me an example please? It's unheard of in Australia. It's usually the rich and famous or somebody in the workplace (where the workplace foots the bill for any 'sexually inappropriate' behaviour, 'unwanted advances', 'sexual harassment': what does any of that even mean?).

"Would you like to join me for coffee at lunch time?".... "No, that's sexual harassment". I mean, where is all this leading because many people meet their love interests in the workplace. That's where I met my spouse of decades. I was cleaning the office in the early 70s and he was a middle manager working overtime. That's today regarded as a 'power imbalance'. For me it was a 'date'. We have been together since April, 1973.

We have in Australia a situation where the richest man is divorcing his wife; somebody in the company he owns has made a complaint about his 'sexual harassment' of a female on the staff. It was an anonymous complaint; turns out one of the women in the company is very likely to be having an affair with the 'owner' who is being divorced - ie. the richest man - and somebody else doesn't like that. I mean, what the...???!!! You expect this behaviour in Russia or Communist China or North Korea and not in a modern democracy.

If we are talking about workplace sexual harassment, it would be difficult to provide examples since the media doesn't cover such events. So, I agree they are unheard of but that does not mean they don't take place. E.g. my wife is the general manager of a janitorial services company: she gets at least 2 such complaints, per year, from minimum wage working woman against minimum wage working men.

I like it, James! Good answer to Belle's question here.

Gotta say though, it still wasn't as "dramatic" as MINE was up there!

(...well, maybe some things don't need "punching up" afterall, huh)

LOL

Didn’t Steve Wozniak relocate to Australia?
There you go Belle.
I guess the rest of us could be jealous.
I get my TV from the Bay Area and San Francisco/Oakland have serious problems.
I live an hour north, we have issues too.

jimimac71 wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 8:17 pm ...I get my TV from the Bay Area and San Francisco/Oakland have serious problems.
I live an hour north, we have issues too.

Sorry jimimac, but I'm a bit confused here.

So, are ya sayin' there's a whole lot of this kind'a stuff goin' on in your area as well, OR that your over-the-air TV reception from the San Francisco stations sucks there in Santa Rosa???

(...that's the problem with not havin' either cable or satellite, ya know)

Dargo wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 8:46 pm

jimimac71 wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 8:17 pm ...I get my TV from the Bay Area and San Francisco/Oakland have serious problems.
I live an hour north, we have issues too.

Sorry jimimac, but I'm a bit confused here.

So, are ya sayin' there's a whole lot of this kind'a stuff goin' on in your area as well, OR that your over-the-air TV reception from the San Francisco stations sucks there in Santa Rosa???

(...that's the problem with not havin' either cable or satellite, ya know)

There is no TV reception for me from SF to Santa Rosa.
Hey! How did you know I'm in Santa Rosa?
Guess you know your geography or a good memory.
I have cable television as an antenna would make a good door stop.
I guess you have the same trouble out there in AZ.
You look confused Dargo. Time for some more Tequila.
Satellite TV is as costly as cable, as is streaming, but that goes in another thread.