Westerns

[JackFavell]

That's true, red. interesting how the character is so good in Shane, but in 3:10, he's almost the dark side of that same stalwart character, we see he'd rather let his family suffer than cheat on his principles. it's a cold decision, and he almost loses our sympathy. The more modern world is full of such grey areas, and it's easy to forget your principles when you are starving..... even when you AREN'T starving. How many of us would have just let the guy go to get the money? He was an OK guy we would have told ourselves. I''m not sure I would have even thought about the morality of it. Sad to say.

[tinker]

One of the key pleasures of westerns for me is the story lines lend themsleves to man ( and occassionally woman) faced with moral or heroic choices that would normally not be part of a life setup. The joy of the western is that the setting is inherently dangerous and even when it is presented as safe, the small town, the fort or the ranch, the lexicon of the genre says danger is always a day a way, the indians come, or raiders or the bad guys ride into town, that it is a reasonable step for the hero (or villian) to be forced into a situation where they must test themselves to the level of mythology. The settings even when the scenery is vast are always confined enough that the individual can make a difference and that evil can be overwhelming.

Whether you have John Wayne in Rio Bravo or True Grit, flawed heros (I always think John T Chance is flawed in that he has chosen to live safely, as he says selling his gun in one place) unquestioningly living up to their moral code, or Van Heflin in 3.10 to Yuma finding it within himself when he is unsure, or Will Kane reluctantly knowing what he must face but facing it alone ( and Amy finding out what she can do despite her quaker views. I think High Noon is one film that explores teh heroic journey for women in both Helen and Amy). One of the reasons I really like the Magnificent Seven is that it manages to reconstruct the heroic journey seven times in the space of one movie.

I think what ended the western at least as I love it was not that they became violent. I still think Clint Eastward and Peckinpah still used the heroic journey (which is sometimes a moral one rather than a courage one) I think it was when the violence stopped being heroic. One of the things I disliked most about the Unforgiven was it tried to destroy that journey ( I know some people loved it but for me it was a film that was trying to write finis on westerns)


dee

[JackFavell]

That's interesting Dee, I like what you wrote about High Noon being about Amy's journey, at least in part. I always liked Helen an awful lot, there's been a bunch of speculation among us as to what happened with Will and Helen. We all have our own version. High Noon has not been one of my favorite westerns, but I see the greatness of it. I love Gary Cooper, so I don't know why it is not one I watch often. Maybe it's too painful?

I don't remember Unforgiven well enough to remember what the theme was...all I know is I hated it when I saw it the one time. I've often thought I should go back and re-watch to see if I have the same opinion.

I do know that in westerns, many times goodness or rightness and high principles don't always go together.

[RedRiver]

UNFORGIVEN is not one of my favorite westerns. It's good enough. But it's long, dark and a little discouraging. I've never seen an Eastwood directed film I consider truly outstanding. But I've missed a few. Haven't seen MYSTIC RIVER or the one about the boxer. I like Clint best when he's doing battle with a giant tarantula! "Feel lucky, punk?"

[RedRiver]

You could add the tight, sombre films of Henry King too. THE GUNFIGHTER, THE BRAVADOS, JESSE JAMES. "Jesse" is a little lighter, more Hollywood than the other two. But they're all good!

[MissGoddess]

great post, Dee.

Incredibly, I still have not seen Eastwood's Unforgiven. I think I have avoided it because of my suspicions about its theme, which you touched on. i don't want to feel awful and depressed. I also worry that most of the people who declare how great it is are not really fans of westerns.

however, i avoided Dirty Harry until a year or two ago and found i enjoyed it most of it. Even the sardonic last shot (a la High Noon). i can't say i'm familiar yet with Eastwood as a director. i don't know if his "voice" is traditional or modernist or a mix-mash of both (which is what I would like the least---I prefer one or the other, frankly, though Ford could straddle the two in ways that don't rattle me. not sure i'm making sense here, ha!)

p.s. you mentioned what you believe ended the western genre (for you) and your points do resemble those i read in a blog post elsewhere...i believe they were reviewing a recently released "western" and how the "hero" lacked any sense of something "bigger" at stake in life...whether honor, values, a "code" etc., the things which were implicitly understood to be important (either you stood for the larger issues or you were against them, but you were not unaware of their existence...this is truly modern, for a western to be filmed in a way that does not convey any sense at all there is a higher order or anything bigger than yourself worth living or dying for). The last few "westerns" I've seen at the theaters have this in common. They are empty.

[movieman1957]

Wendy, I wish you might expound on your reasons for disliking "Unforgiven." I liked it. It is certainly a different kind of western. Eastwood is no hero. He is rotten through to his soul but I think he makes an interesting character.

If you do watch it again it would be interesting to compare your thoughts from each viewing.

[JackFavell]

Chris, I'd have to watch it again, because I don't remember a blessed thing about it! I don't know if I blocked it, or what. I just remember strongly disliking it. I'll see if I can find it again at some point and give it another go. Right now I'm having some computer issues, so I don't know if I'll even be able to get online again after posting this.

[knitwit45]

I think that why I disliked the movie, Chris. I couldn't figure out who I was supposed to root for, Eastwood is always (used to be anyway) the hero. Between his rottenness and the violence, I really couldn't watch it thru to the end.

[mrsl]

.
Unforgiven is basically a 'chase' film. A prostitute is knife cut on her face by a drunken john, and all the other girls of the house pool their money to hire someone to find the guy and get rid of him. The 'someone' turns out to be Eastwood with a young fellow as a sort of sidekick. Problems arise when the sheriff of the town (Gene Hackman ?) resents someone else meting out punishment that he feels should be his responsibility only. Clint is truly nasty in it, but he simply feels no woman should be treated the way the girl was since she had no one to stick up for her, and he is just doing what any self respecting man would do, if someone hurt his woman (even though she is not his woman).

Out of the last 5 movies that Clint has starred in, he directed all but one.

Trouble with the Curve: A light hearted baseball film where grandpa helps his grandson over a few humps of life while his daughter rails against him all the way.
Gran Torino: He's an old codger who lives in his lifelong house in a neighborhood which is changing from caucasion to Latino. His new neighbors are Latino and at first he is his grouchy self, but gradually sees there is no difference in how the family loves and respects each other and are just another family trying to survive. The Torino is his pride and joy and the object that introduces them to each other.
Million Dollar Baby: He trains a girl as a boxer. The subject is foolish to me and although I watched it out of curiosity, I didn't care for it.
Blood Work: A retired FBI agent who had covered JFK in Dallas and still feeling responsible for that, had a heart transplant and learns some facts about a guy the FBI has been after for years and gets in on the case . . . . but, is he strong enough to handle the strenuous work.
Space Cowboys: A wild and wonderful laugh fest in the first 3/4 starring Clint, Tommy Lee Jones, Jim Garner, and Donald Sutherland as senior ex-astronauts, who go up in space one last time to fix a broken satellite before it crashes to earth. Just the scenes of the 4 guys taking the fitness tests and doing the exercises was worth the price of the ticket.

Probably needless to say, I'm a big Eastwood fan and really like his films, especially the ones he directs. I've only become a fan since he returned to Hollywood and quit those horrible spaghetti westerns. I didn't care for him in Rawhide.

Also, BTW, I agree you should see Mystic River, especially Sean Penn gives a fantastic performance.
.

[movieman1957]

Anne:

I think this is more a bounty for Eastwood. As he gets to know the girls he is softened some but when Morgan Freeman is caught by Hackman it all changes. The William Munny of Missouri is back. Nothing is safe. His kids are the last thing on his mind. I think it is more about Hackman and the guys who cut up the girl just happen to be there when it all lets go.

It made me wonder how he ever found a woman that would marry him. She was the only thing that put that part of him away. He ultimately can't change.

Wendy:

Don't worry about it. If you disliked it that much I certainly wouldn't think you should sit through it again. I thought maybe you had some recollection of it.

[mrsl]

.
Chris: You're so right! But if you noticed, I forgot to mention that I was not very fond of Unforgiven. I prefer to watch the old one with Audrey, Burt, and Audie, although they are totally different stories. Unforgiven and Million Dollar Baby are two examples of Clints work that I don't care for.

[JackFavell]

I just think I might find something different this time through. i've changed so much in regards to how I watch movies. I simply remember the film being completely and totally unpleasant.

[tinker]

Wendy

I havent chnaged the way I view movies that much and I agree with your descruption of the film


dee